Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Neopatriarch]

So basicly you believe some people are going to hell for no good reason other than God made them evil to begin with and they had no chance.

They are just a piece of garbage God never intended to give any hope to, and consequently they will suffer forever for things they had no control over.

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Does that about sum it up?

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How I see it, reading between their lines, This is exactly what unconditional eternal security teaches. They believe Judas was created evil so that Scripture could be fulfilled, and that God gave him no chance to repent. That he was predestined to eternal hell before creation. Peter and the others denied Christ several times and they repented. Jesus even called Peter satan. But they repented. Did God predestin Judas not to repent and kill himself? Or did he brood over his sin and commit suicied? Judas was a saved man who "By transgression fell" and he brooded over his sin and chose to commit suicied.

God is not the author of sin or death. Satan is.

Personally, I don't believe in chance. "Chance" means that some things happen for no reason, that they happen outside of God's control and will. Anything that happens outside of God's control doesn't make sense. Ultimately, there can be no answer to "why" it happens; it just does. So, if Judas had this kind of "chance" to repent, then his repentance would merely be an accident. In other words, it would be something that he is not responsible for. Further, it would be something that God is not responsible for either. It would've just happened. Are saved by "chance"? God forbid.

Romans says:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,

[Neopatriarch]

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, as seen here. Yes it says "God hardened his heart" in other parts of the story, but taken with other verses of scripture, it is nonsensicle to assume that means that God forced pharaoh's decision. Sort of like the passage where God said, "I make evil, etc" We know from James that God does not do evil, and he does not tempt men with evil, so God could not have FORCED pharaoh to do evil.

God ordained Pharaoh to do just what Pharaoh wanted to do. So yes, God did not force Pharaoh to do something against his will. Pharaoh's choice was free.

Let's say you are presented a choice of going to either Applebee's or Bennigan's (only 2 choices here). Let's say also that you had a microchip implanted in your brain that prevented you from going to Applebee's, so that, if you had wanted to go there, you would not be able to. You would not have the freedom to choose something other than Bennigan's. But what if you wanted to go to Bennigan's and not Applebee's. The microchip would lie dormant. It would not activate to prevent you from going to Bennigan's since it is designed to prevent you only from going to Applebee's. Is your decision to go to Bennigan's free? You do not have the freedom to do otherwise, but what difference does it make since you wanted to go to Bennigan's anyway? You decide to go to Bennigan's and you are responsible for that choice to go there.

Pharaoh and Judas were acting in a way that was consistent with the evil desires in their hearts. They wanted to do evil. So, what difference does it make if God ordains that they do? What difference does it make if they did not have the freedom to do otherwise?

[Guest Primed Minister]

Romans 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

James 2:23

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Where do any of these verses say, "Abraham did nothing, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"?

Like King David, and all of us, Abraham had a sinful nature and needed salvation. When the scripture referes to Abraham believing and it being accounted to him for righteosness, this is in reference to his seed which would later result in the birth of Jesus Christ the Saviour. He believed this just as it was revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. One cannot believe unless it's been revealed by the Father.

[Neopatriarch]

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Yeah, lets just suppose:

Suppose you have a chip in your head the forces you to kill someone. You have two options. You can kill John Doe, or you can do nothing. Since you cannot resist even though you may want to, you follow the chip's instructions and kill John Doe. On your trial date, the judge, who coincidently is the one who put the chip in your head, refuses you to submit the evidence that you have no control over the matter. You are convicted of murder and sentenced to die by electric chair.

1. You don't have two options. You are being forced to kill someone.

2. Using the word "force" suggests that you are doing something you don't want to. Hence, you are not doing it freely.

3. Judges don't just convict people because they did something wrong, but because it was in their character to do it.

[Smalcald]

Romans 4:3

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

James 2:23

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Where do any of these verses say, "Abraham did nothing, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"?

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Regarding the verses about pharaoh:

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, as seen here. Yes it says "God hardened his heart" in other parts of the story, but taken with other verses of scripture, it is nonsensicle to assume that means that God forced pharaoh's decision. Sort of like the passage where God said, "I make evil, etc" We know from James that God does not do evil, and he does not tempt men with evil, so God could not have FORCED pharaoh to do evil.

Exodus 9:34

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

James 1:12

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

James 1:13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

If God caused Pharaoh to harden his heart, then God caused him to sin. But James clearly states here that such cannot be the case. So obviously God did not force pharaoh into anything, pharaoh chose his rebellion.

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The doctrine some of you promote is not a loving saviour God at all, but one of a petty, self absorbed deity like Zeus or even Baal. You people have some seriously warped interpretation of scriptures, to the point of denying Jesus' love for, and the value of humanity?

I know that the bible does not always say things which fit our view of what we want God to be. But the below passage is clear. I guess we have to go through it, although I think it speaks for itself. But it is directly addressing this issue.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,

[Thaddaeus]

Smalcald,

I know that the bible does not always say things which fit our view of what we want God to be. But the below passage is clear. I guess we have to go through it, although I think it speaks for itself. But it is directly addressing this issue.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,

[larryt]

Smalcald,

I know that the bible does not always say things which fit our view of what we want God to be. But the below passage is clear. I guess we have to go through it, although I think it speaks for itself. But it is directly addressing this issue.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,

[larryt]

A dead man cannot believe anything.

Sure they can. Unbelievers believe many of the same things you believe. They believe in gravity, they believe in sleeping in a bed at night under a roof. They believe in electricity, and so on. They believe some things that are lies, and they believe some things that are true.

By your answer you are not indicating that you understood that I was talking about spiritually dead men. Let me reiterate. A Spiritually dead man can do nothing spiritual even as a physically dead man cannot do anything physical.

How can a man without the Spirit of God understand anything spiritual? He cannot.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

How can a spiritually dead person proclaim that Jesus is Lord? He cannot.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

A very important question that I would like you to answer.

Did you contribute anything to your salvation?

LT

Faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted for righteousness.

Without faith, the fact Jesus died on the cross would not help me. this is why some people are saved and others are not. Because they CHOOSE to believe the gospel, or else they CHOOSE to believe a lie.

Are you saying that you contributed "faith" to the salvation you are trusting in? Are you going to be able to boast that YOU believed and therefore You aided the Saviour in the salvation you are trusting in?

I am implying nothing, nor am I personally attacking you, but only asking these questions so that I understand your position.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

I am not sure what to make of your statement above. Are you saying that all mankind will be saved and no one will be cast into the lake of fire? Just looking for clarification.

The clarification is embodied right in the statement I made. Being saved and cast into the lake of fire are two different aspects of salvation as well. You are convoluting them. The same with your question below. You are speaking of two distinct, separate aspects of salvation.

And I believe that these verses do bear on the issue of OSAS. If we contribute anything to the work of Jesus Christ we can say that we could loose our salvation. On the other hand if He has done everything for us there is nothing that can thwart His accomplishing our salvation because He has done all things well.

The verses have nothing directly to do with them. They bear solely on the work of Christ on the Cross. Man HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORK OF THE CROSS. Very simple. Man had nothing to do with initiating it, which is what the texts are saying that prompted this exchange. Man cannot change it, add to it, subtract from it, nor even deny it. It has been accomplished.

However, your personal salvation, the salvation of your soul is an ongoing event in your life. It is the response you are making to the call of Christ in this world. A call that He can only make because He redeemed, reconciled, justified all of mankind to God. He overcame the fall, reversed the fall. Mankind is saved from the fall.

OSAS ONLY deals with the call, the response, the salvation of our souls. It does not deal with the Work of Christ on the Cross. They are not one and the same.

[larryt]

larryt,

I am not sure what to make of your statement above. Are you saying that all mankind will be saved and no one will be cast into the lake of fire? Just looking for clarification.

The clarification is embodied right in the statement I made. Being saved and cast into the lake of fire are two different aspects of salvation as well. You are convoluting them. The same with your question below. You are speaking of two distinct, separate aspects of salvation.

Hi Thadaeus,

Hope I am not burdensome. I really don't understand exactly what you meant by your first statement. Let me ask it this way?

Are you saying that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world no one will suffer eternally in the lake of fire no matter whether they repent or not? Is everyone that ever lived going to be taken to heaven?

LT