Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[st. Worm]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The works that we were created unto and ordained to walk in is the gospel of Christ.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The "word" of God is the gospel that Christ brought to us.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Chruch of Christ is the house of God. What is be the end for us if we obey not the gospel of God?

Now, we need to define what "obeying the gospel" is. We know that when we read the New Testement we see the things that were laid down for us to bostain from and the things we are commanded to do. Here are a few examples -

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

When I learn of what is required of us by the will of God and obey it I committ a work that we have been created and ordained to do. The works we do are works of the Law of Christ. When I learn that evil speaking is a sin and I repent of it then I committ a work. These are not works that God is doing in me. they are works that I am doing with the guidence and strength of Christ, God, and H.S.. They are not taking the glory from God. I am actually glorify God by my good works of obedience.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What a lot of churches are teaching is that we don't have to do anything because Christ did everything and our works are as nothing before God. When we actually read the scriptures we will find that we were created to glorify God by our obedience to him by not giving into ourselves, but by living to God. Flee sin.

Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

If I step into Christianity with the mindset that after rebirth I don't have to do anything thing then I will live life committing all of the sins that I was previously saved from. I can't go to heaven that way.

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete. When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation. In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

sw

[larryt]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The works that we were created unto and ordained to walk in is the gospel of Christ.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The "word" of God is the gospel that Christ brought to us.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Chruch of Christ is the house of God. What is be the end for us if we obey not the gospel of God?

Now, we need to define what "obeying the gospel" is. We know that when we read the New Testement we see the things that were laid down for us to bostain from and the things we are commanded to do. Here are a few examples -

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

When I learn of what is required of us by the will of God and obey it I committ a work that we have been created and ordained to do. The works we do are works of the Law of Christ. When I learn that evil speaking is a sin and I repent of it then I committ a work. These are not works that God is doing in me. they are works that I am doing with the guidence and strength of Christ, God, and H.S.. They are not taking the glory from God. I am actually glorify God by my good works of obedience.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What a lot of churches are teaching is that we don't have to do anything because Christ did everything and our works are as nothing before God. When we actually read the scriptures we will find that we were created to glorify God by our obedience to him by not giving into ourselves, but by living to God. Flee sin.

Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

If I step into Christianity with the mindset that after rebirth I don't have to do anything thing then I will live life committing all of the sins that I was previously saved from. I can't go to heaven that way.

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete. When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation. In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

sw

Hi sw,

And I agree with you statement above. Why?

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The bible says so. And by faith I believe it.

I have been already reconciled.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

If you says you must contribute to the work of Christ then you have not been reconciled, you are not complete and do not know Him.

He has done everything, to Him be all glory and praise.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

St. worm,

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete.

Your salvation from the curse of Adam is complete. It is an accomplished fact. Man cannot do anything regarding it in any shape or form. We lay claim to the Work of Christ by faith. Faith is what justifies us to God. All God requires of us, instead of doing all the work to save ourselves, (which we could not do anyway) is to believe, have faith.

But justification or by faith does not save us individually. We are called to not just believe but to continue to believe. We are actually saved through that faith. Faith must be continuous, it is our faith, we are being held responsible for our faith and what we do with that which Christ has given mankind.

That is why you and no one else can do anything to add to the Work of Christ.

HOWEVER, the work that is being referenced is the work of every believer. Once we accept, are justified, then we become the elect. God created us for good works, the works were created for us to do. This in not saving us from the fall. It is placing us in communion and union with God which is the whole purpose of our existance and the whole purpose of why Christ died for you. He wanted to have union with you. He did not want to lose you to death, the stronghold of the devil. That is why He conquered death, so that we could live. Because we live we can now live IN HIM. If we remained dead, we also could not live IN Him. That is why He came, to redeem the world, to reconcile the world back to God, to overcome the fall, the curse of Adam. It is imposible for man to overcome the fall. But it is very possible for man to work with God as a believer. It is the purpose of our existance and for which we were saved.

When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation.

You can stop thinking that. There is absolutely nothing you could do to bring your dead state back to life. Christ did absolutely nothing on the Cross that would save you individually. He saved mankind from the fall, that is it. He provided for the means that man could fulfill his created functions in this universe. God is not going to change the purpose of our existance. He simply took away the blockage to our communion with God - the curse against Adam.

In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

There is nothing uncertain or incomplete of what Christ did on the Cross. It is wholly completed. BUT, that has nothing to do with your acceptance or belief in what He accomplished for you. Once you do beleive, it is all about being in union with HIM and working with Him to bring all things to God so that He can be all in all. He created you for a purpose, it helps to understand what is expected of you once you accept HIM. It is a mutual covenant, a synergistic, cooperative relationship that Adam had with God before he fell. Christ put mankind back into that acceptable condition. It is called redemption, reconcilement, justification, to be made acceptable, to be put back into a correct relationship with God. That is what Christ did for mankind. Now, it is up to you to so believe and then work with Him as if you did in fact so believe. It does not permit you to sit on the sidelines and think that God created you to be a passive bystander in His created order. You are not a tree.

You are a unique person. He created you unique, communal and free. He did so because He desired, not because He had to, to have communion with a created being, He created you in His Image just so He could have communion, (that is why you are not a tree or an animal) The ability to commune eternally was lost in the fall, which Christ corrected.

But remember, the law still does what it has always done, lead us to Christ.

[st. Worm]

St. worm,

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete.

Your salvation from the curse of Adam is complete. It is an accomplished fact. Man cannot do anything regarding it in any shape or form. We lay claim to the Work of Christ by faith. Faith is what justifies us to God. All God requires of us, instead of doing all the work to save ourselves, (which we could not do anyway) is to believe, have faith.

But justification or by faith does not save us individually. We are called to not just believe but to continue to believe. We are actually saved through that faith. Faith must be continuous, it is our faith, we are being held responsible for our faith and what we do with that which Christ has given mankind.

That is why you and no one else can do anything to add to the Work of Christ.

HOWEVER, the work that is being referenced is the work of every believer. Once we accept, are justified, then we become the elect. God created us for good works, the works were created for us to do. This in not saving us from the fall. It is placing us in communion and union with God which is the whole purpose of our existance and the whole purpose of why Christ died for you. He wanted to have union with you. He did not want to lose you to death, the stronghold of the devil. That is why He conquered death, so that we could live. Because we live we can now live IN HIM. If we remained dead, we also could not live IN Him. That is why He came, to redeem the world, to reconcile the world back to God, to overcome the fall, the curse of Adam. It is imposible for man to overcome the fall. But it is very possible for man to work with God as a believer. It is the purpose of our existance and for which we were saved.

When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation.

You can stop thinking that. There is absolutely nothing you could do to bring your dead state back to life. Christ did absolutely nothing on the Cross that would save you individually. He saved mankind from the fall, that is it. He provided for the means that man could fulfill his created functions in this universe. God is not going to change the purpose of our existance. He simply took away the blockage to our communion with God - the curse against Adam.

In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

There is nothing uncertain or incomplete of what Christ did on the Cross. It is wholly completed. BUT, that has nothing to do with your acceptance or belief in what He accomplished for you. Once you do beleive, it is all about being in union with HIM and working with Him to bring all things to God so that He can be all in all. He created you for a purpose, it helps to understand what is expected of you once you accept HIM. It is a mutual covenant, a synergistic, cooperative relationship that Adam had with God before he fell. Christ put mankind back into that acceptable condition. It is called redemption, reconcilement, justification, to be made acceptable, to be put back into a correct relationship with God. That is what Christ did for mankind. Now, it is up to you to so believe and then work with Him as if you did in fact so believe. It does not permit you to sit on the sidelines and think that God created you to be a passive bystander in His created order. You are not a tree.

You are a unique person. He created you unique, communal and free. He did so because He desired, not because He had to, to have communion with a created being, He created you in His Image just so He could have communion, (that is why you are not a tree or an animal) The ability to commune eternally was lost in the fall, which Christ corrected.

But remember, the law still does what it has always done, lead us to Christ.

I am sorry but I must continue to disagree with much of what your are saying. For example, you say "Once we accept, are justified, then we become the elect." That is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches. We are first God's elect from before the foundations of the world. Election precedes justification and even the cross itself. We are not God's elect because we choose to be. We are God's elect because HE chooses us to be.

Your next statement seems incorrect also. You say "But justification or by faith does not save us individually." Actually our justification, the instrumental cause being faith does save us individually. It is a legal fiction for sure but through faith we are counted as perfectly righteous and reconciled to God. It is true there is a forensic justification that applies to all mankind but it is individual justification where that forensic justification is applied to us by faith that salvation is ours. There is nothing to be done on our part. In fact, even faith itself is a 100% free gift of God. He is the author and perfecter of it. To be sure we must not reject our faith so that we will continue in it. But to say that we must do something to add to that which has been done for us is not correct. Salvation is not synergistic, but monergistic from start to finish. It is God's work from start to finish and not our own. Good works flow from that faith but they are not works that we conceive ourselves trying to earn merit badges of salvation like a boy scout. These are true good works done completely without self interest in mind, works done simply because they need to be done. They are the works of Christ working in us.

Friend, salvation is yours not because you must do something to complete it. As Jesus said, it is finished! The issue is, do you believe it?

sw

[st. Worm]

Very well said Thaddaeus.

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete. When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation. In other words, when I reject the certainty of Christ I am relying on the Law and we all know that the Law can only condemn us when we rely on it.

sw

So, I take it that you either you don't own a bible or if you do don't use it. This isn't said out of any disrespect. There are many people who will defend they way they believe and either use no scriptures or very little to back us thier belief.

If you would look at the bible you will see that we are commanded to obey the law. You are correct that obeying the law is not salvation, but if we do not follow that selfsame law we won't inherit heaven. Read these scriptures -

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Now, you cannot say that there is nothing that we can do. We are commanded to follow and live by the gospel, which is our law. If we don't then we don't have God.

This is a huge contradiction you are throwing here. You are saying that there is nothing we can do, yet the bible itself states that we are to do something. We are to deny ourselves and follow the law or we will lose that salvation that he gave us.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

This is a stipulation.

There are many more scriptures that prove these points and all can be found in the scriptures.

I believe that all to many people need to take this advice that Christ said and compare it to what they believe -

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

That is why we were given 27 books of the bible. They ALL testify of what is required from us to reach salvation and what is required of us after salvation.

Our salvation from our sins is like a man drowning in the ocean. When a ship comes by to save him he has the choice to accept the help and live or die in the ocean. Christ did the same thing in offering us salvation from our ocean of sin.

We have a choice to accept it or deny it. This is grace and my faith is that he will save me if I let him just like the ship.

Now, the man that was saved from the ocean can stay saved as long as he wants. The ship and it's grace will always be there, but what is to stop him from jumping back in and drowning anyway? We can do the same thing when Christ saves us from our sins. We can take ourselves right out of his grace and go back into all of our sins we were saved from.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Couple that with this -

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

A sin is a transgression of the law that so many people like to dismiss. Following the law won't save us, but not following the law will keep us from heaven.

Without wasting my evening addressing your entire post, I will simply take the last part. You say "not following the law will keep you from heaven". That is true for those who have not placed their trust in Christ. But the simple fact is none of us follow the law. The law's demands are endless. It requires absolute perfection 100% of the time. If you break one law you have broken them all. It is not a remedy for sin. If you think you are now following the law, you are delusional.

Only rejection of faith can send a believer to condemnation. The law has nothing to do with it.

sw

[Thaddaeus]

St Worm,

I am sorry but I must continue to disagree with much of what your are saying. For example, you say "Once we accept, are justified, then we become the elect." That is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Hardly. We are predestined to be elect IN HIM. The only way to get to that status is by belief. When we believe, when we enter into His Kingdom, become a member of His Body, then we are the elect. The elect was predestined to be conformed to His Image.

We are first God's elect from before the foundations of the world. Election precedes justification and even the cross itself. We are not God's elect because we choose to be. We are God's elect because HE chooses us to be.

It is predestined how God would work with those who believed. They are the elect. We are elect because we freely accept Him. Find any text that says God chooses us to believe or that belief or faith has no role whatsoever to play in man's salvation.

Your next statement seems incorrect also. You say "But justification or by faith does not save us individually." Actually our justification, the instrumental cause being faith does save us individually. It is a legal fiction for sure but through faith we are counted as perfectly righteous and reconciled to God.

Wrong justification. Christ justifies man to God. Makes man acceptable again. This is done without man. This is the Work of Christ on the Cross. You may think of it as legal, but it is relational and personal. Since we are not justified, something man could not do, all we need do is to believe that this is what Christ accomplished, for me. That is the justification by faith. We accept Christ justifying us (me). But we need to follow up with action to confirm that faith. We must repent, next, be baptised. The repentance and continued confession of our sins keeps us reconciled to God on a personal level. The personal relationship you have as a believer.

You are correct in saying that this initial faith does save us. We do possess that promise of eternal life in this life. But it is held as a surety. Our faith and continued faith must endure to the end in order for us to actually receive that promise - eternal life with Christ. See I Pet 1:4-5

Faith has nothing to do with making us perfectly righteous and reconciled to God. That is what Christ did not the Cross. Redeemed mankind, reconciled mankind, made man acceptable to God, placed man back into a right relationship with God. We accept this by belief or faith. That puts us in a personal relationship with Christ. We enter into the covenantal relationship. A relationship that is both mutual, personal and conditional. It is conditioned on we as believers continuing our faith.

It is true there is a forensic justification that applies to all mankind but it is individual justification where that forensic justification is applied to us by faith that salvation is ours. There is nothing to be done on our part.

You cannot use both definitions for two very distinct events. One is all Christ. The other is man's acceptance of that Work, by faith. There is absolutely nothing we can do relative to Christ's Work on the Cross. But if you want your faith to mean anything, it must show forth evidence that it is real. That reality is works. We are saved through faith, not by faith.

It is all about what we do. Christianity is not a philosophy, a theory, an idealogy. It is a living faith, it is relational, it is personal, it is active, it is a living in Christ. There is nothing whatsoever that can be described as passive in the Christian life. God does absolutely nothing without your assistance. He may do all the real work, but He does so only as long as you believe, have faith. Man is surely free to depart, just as free as Adam was in the beginning. We are under a very similar commandment as was Adam. Ours is believe or not to believe. Have faith or not have faith.

In fact, even faith itself is a 100% free gift of God.

Yes, and therefore all men possess this faith.

He is the author and perfecter of it.

The Greek is example and model. That is why we must follow His example. He is the perfect example of obedience. Obedience even unto death.

But to say that we must do something to add to that which has been done for us is not correct.

When you say this following what you have already stated, then this must mean that you think that God or Christ is believing for you. That we are not really speaking of human beings as being believers but Christ is the believer in and through us. We are mere passive conduits of Christ doing something for the Father. Can you support this with any scripture?

Who is the moral agent here, God or man?

Salvation is not synergistic, but monergistic from start to finish.

Well, it is actually both. Christ's Work on the Cross is monergistic. Man had nothing to do with it, accept the sin and judgement against Adam made it necessary. On the other hand, the purpose of our existance, that we were created to be in union or communion with God is what we do as believers, which is wholly synergistic. Communion, covenant, relationship are synonomous terms implying a mutal at least two parties. Both parties having a relational standing and responsibilities to the other.

Good works flow from that faith but they are not works that we conceive ourselves trying to earn merit badges of salvation like a boy scout.

They do flow from faith, they are evidence and confirmation that you even have faith. That is why we are saved through faith because that faith must be continuous. We fail in faith, we become unfaithful, then we are no longer IN Chrsit and no longer being saved, no longer an heir and will not inherit the promise at the end.

It is not earned. It is commanded, expected of us as believers being in union with God. He desires that we follow HIM. We deny ourselves and follow Him. We must obey Him, not ourselves. We are to love all others as He loves us.

These are true good works done completely without self interest in mind, works done simply because they need to be done. They are the works of Christ working in us.

That is why is it called self denial. And, yes they need to be done, IF we desire to inherit the promise. They are works of Christ working in and through us, but ONLY if we believe. Only IF we have faith. No faith, no works. No works, no faith. Read the whole of James. It is the handbook of Christian living. It is the manual of salvation for the believer.

Friend, salvation is yours not because you must do something to complete it. As Jesus said, it is finished! The issue is, do you believe it?

Yes, it is complete and I have nothing to do with Christ's redemptive work as does no other man. His Work is indeed finished. He accomplished everything He was predestined to accomplish for mankind. I beleive it wholeheartedly. But in believing it, I have placed myself into a covenantal relationship with Him. A relationship that I was created to have with God. Christ redeemed me just so that I, if I beleived, could have this relationship with Him. A relationship that was impossible as long as I was under the judgement of Adam.

The real question is, What are you DOING with the Christ? Are you on the sidelines looking in. Are you in a living relationship with Him, or do you think that you can be a passive bystander and that you are responsible for nothing. What will you be judged on? Does it say faith anywhere?

[Thaddaeus]

St Worm,

If you break one law you have broken them all. It is not a remedy for sin. If you think you are now following the law, you are delusional.

I don't think anyone has stated that it is a remedy for sin.

The atonement of Christ is the remedy for sin. But that remedy is ONLY applicable through repentance and confession of our sins. The law points to those transgressions.

Only rejection of faith can send a believer to condemnation. The law has nothing to do with it.

Sinning is a rejection of faith. You cannot love God and hate your neighbor.

Here are a few very explicit texts which deny your statement:

Rev.14:12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John.14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

These are just a mere few. There are almost 150 or so in the NT. Only four Books of the

NT that do not mention any warning against losing faith.

Faith is very important, and keeping it as well. Your salvation depends on it.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Thaddaeus

[st. Worm]

St Worm,

If you break one law you have broken them all. It is not a remedy for sin. If you think you are now following the law, you are delusional.

I don't think anyone has stated that it is a remedy for sin.

The atonement of Christ is the remedy for sin. But that remedy is ONLY applicable through repentance and confession of our sins. The law points to those transgressions.

Only rejection of faith can send a believer to condemnation. The law has nothing to do with it.

Sinning is a rejection of faith. You cannot love God and hate your neighbor.

Here are a few very explicit texts which deny your statement:

Rev.14:12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John.14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

These are just a mere few. There are almost 150 or so in the NT. Only four Books of the

NT that do not mention any warning against losing faith.

Faith is very important, and keeping it as well. Your salvation depends on it.

Well Thad, about all I can say at this point is if you wish to tie your salvation into your ability to keep the Law of Moses or even the summation of the Law, perfect and unfailing love for God and neighbor, I suppose you and the rich young ruler that encountered Jesus will have a long time to lament your decisions. But remember, one little sin, one failure to love God and neighbor with absolute perfection and you are out, have a nice day and thank you for playing. I hope you haven't had that one little transgression yet in your life. Good luck the rest of the way though.

Also, with regard to other aspects of your post, I am not saying we can discard our faith and maintain our salvation. I agree if we have no faith in Christ we have no salvation. But trusting in our ability to keep the Law, now that is another matter entirely.

sw

[st. Worm]

Well Thad, about all I can say at this point is if you wish to tie your salvation into your ability to keep the Law of Moses or even the summation of the Law, perfect and unfailing love for God and neighbor, I suppose you and the rich young ruler that encountered Jesus will have a long time to lament your decisions. But remember, one little sin, one failure to love God and neighbor with absolute perfection and you are out, have a nice day and thank you for playing. I hope you haven't had that one little transgression yet in your life. Good luck the rest of the way though.

Also, with regard to other aspects of your post, I am not saying we can discard our faith and maintain our salvation. I agree if we have no faith in Christ we have no salvation. But trusting in our ability to keep the Law, now that is another matter entirely.

sw

We are not talking about keeping the "Law Of Moses". We are speaking of keeping the "Law Of Christ". They are two entirely different laws that have some simularities.

If you would read the Sermon On The Mount by Christ you will see where he is converting from the Old Law to the New Law.

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:31-32 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 5:33-34 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

You will see in each of these passages where Christ refers to the Law Of Moses and then gives the new changes of the Law which he is now instituting.

We are commanded to follow the Law Of Christ, not the Law Of Moses.

Jeff Hernandez

Church Of Christ

These are not changing the OT Law. For the most part these are giving explanations of just what the Law really means. For example the commandment against adultery is not fulfilled simply by not committing physical adultery. It is broken just by lusting and commiting adultery in the heart. Same for the commandment not to murder. We break it not only by physically killing our brother but also by hateful anger.

Jesus is truly explaining the real standards of the law and why it is we cannot possibly keep them. You don't understand that and you pastor a church?

sw

[st. Worm]

I cannot agree with that statement. My salvation is complete because of what Christ has done. That is what I believe by faith. I can do nothing subsequently to add to that or to make it any more complete. When I start to think that there is something I can or must do to make Christ's work better or more complete then I have become religious and therefore decided that it is not Christ but my own works that assure my salvation.

For example, you say "Once we accept, are justified, then we become the elect." That is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches. We are first God's elect from before the foundations of the world. Election precedes justification and even the cross itself. We are not God's elect because we choose to be. We are God's elect because HE chooses us to be.

Friend, salvation is yours not because you must do something to complete it. As Jesus said, it is finished! The issue is, do you believe it?

Holy smokes folks - h*ll has frozen over!!!

I agree with something SW said! And said very well!

SW - I repent in dust and ashes...

THE END IS NEAR!