Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[TomPJr]

hrydavid,

For many years I have taught froom door to door and person to person on the aspects of Christianity. In all of this time I have both heard and read many variations of the same things in "Christian" teachings. i.e., there are variations on baptism, the Trinity, OSAS, etc. I say this to say that not everybody believes these things the same way. Even on these boards I can see the disunity on the definition of what OSAS is. So, even though to some people it may not mean they have a right keep sinning because they can't lose that security to others it does and people stay in their sins believing that Christ did everything on the cross for them and all they have to do is believe. There is nothing they can do.

I am a huge advocate of following ALL of the scriptures. I have seen to many times people stopping at "For by grace ye are saved" and it seems like they basically throw the rest of the bible out because their answers stay with those verses or such like.

I have been taught that since Christ gave us the whole New Testement that we are to us all of it because of this -

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It say that ALL scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, correction, and most of all instruction in righteousness. So, if all scripture is given to us for that we may be perfect before God then why don't we use all of them?

People will use Eph 2: 8,9 yet will side step this scripture -

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People don't believe we have to follow the commandments of God. And I have said this repeatedly that all our works are that we were ordained to walk in (Eph 2:10) are the keeping of the commandments. When God says to flee fornication and I do I committed a work. Our works are not taking chicken soup to our neighbors or feeding the poor. They are doing the will of God fleeing from sin and doing his will.

You see, many people rely on faith only. I rely on faith, hope, obedience (works), Christ, God, HS, etc. Here is an example -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What does this scripture say? Confession of Christ does NOT guarantee me a place in heaven, but doing the will of God does.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Here we see that works are an important part in our justification before God -

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Here we are saved by hope -

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

We are save by baptism -

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I could go on, but I want everybody to understand that for a lack of a better example that Christianity is like doing a receipe. It involves many ingredients. That is why we have 27 books in the New Testement. What happens is that many people try to bake a cake on flour and water when they base their religion on grace and faith only. It takes both of them and much more.

People also do this whne it comes to OSAS. I have seen people support this idea by using only half of the scriptures and leaving a lot of other ones out. Of course God loves all of mankind and wants that all mankind would be saved, but this is his world and we are living by his rules. On judgement day those who were not obedient will be cast into the lake of fire. This is for both sinners and Christians who refused to give up their sins.

There are many scriptures that I, as well as others, have given to prove that not every Christian will make it to heaven. People don't want to believe this and that is why they say that they were never Christians then. We can't prove that even if we wanted to. We find the bible filled with many people who have turned their backs on God and we know what happens to those who choose sin over God. That goes for sinners and disobedient Christians.

Still nobody has answered my question on how many Christians do you know that live in sins like fornication right now and nobody is doing anything about it? I know people right now that consider themselves to be Christians and are living in sins like fornication and will stay that way because where they go to church doesn't teach that it is wrong. I have seen them also live in lies and other sins that they don't theink they have to repent of because Christ did everything for them on the cross and they are saved.

There are conditions on salvation and you can read all about them in the scriptures of the bible.

1 John 2:24-25 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

We have to continue in the doctrine. To continue in the doctrine is to live by or according to the doctrine. The doctrine of Christ is all about salvation and repentance of sin. We know what sin is, it is anything we do to break any of the commandments written in the New Testement, When we study the bible and learn what sin is we are to repent of it. If we don't then we are living in sin and we are not worthy before God to enter into heaven with sin in our lives that we don't repent from. Not the sin that I committ. The sins that I don't repent from will take us to hell.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Now, these are sins that we are told NOT to be let named amongst us AFTER we have become Christians or we will NOT inherit heaven. This could not be any clearer. Christians can sin and will go to hell if they do not repent of their sins.

God's promises are forever, but that only applies to those who stay obedient to him.

I wish everyone would read your post....very good!

[Arthur Durnan]

Right On! If Calvary couldn't give us EVERLASTING salvation as John 3:16 says it does, then Jesus will have endure the cross a SECOND time.....even a THIRD time.....even a FOURTH time!! Either Jesus Christ FULLY saves us and COMPLETELY seals us and WONDERFULLY places us in the heavens with Him (as the Bible says He does) - OR God is made out by the "Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-Saved, Then Re-Lost" element to be a distinct liar! And, of course, BTW, doesn't the Apostle Paul remind those who "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit" that if we find ourselves "re-lost", that "if they fall away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to RENEW them again unto repentance"? (Hebrews 6:4b,6). NO SECOND CHANCE AT IT!!!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Arthur Durnan]

I do read you. So then we are wonderfully saved FOREVER, and SEALED by the Holy Spirit "UNTIL the Day of redemption," then we're placed "in the heavens with Christ" - and then, according to your retort, we become LOST AGAIN; our everlasting salvation WASN'T FOREVER after all! And our SEALING UNTIL "the day of redemption" becomes UNSEALED! And also we're BROUGHT BACK DOWN from the heavens with Jesus with our OLD eternal address RESTORED AGAIN! Big Query: Pray tell, what were you SAVED FROM in the first place when you trusted Jesus as personal Savior? Certainly NOT from hell & eternal damnation, for THAT is NOW AGAIN your destiny!! I truly love this quite unique (and quite despairing) "Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-Saved Again, Then Re-Lost" on into the darkest night. Wasn't the "original Calvary" strong enough to save you - and guarantee heaven?! Evidently not.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Thaddaeus]

hrydavid,

Im not sure I get exactly what you mean. What is the other type of eternal life you are talking about?

Hell is also eternal life, spiritual death, separation spiritually from God.

Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Ezek 37:1-14,They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work. Man needed life. Man needed to be restored to the creature he was before the fall, capable of being in union with God for an eternity. To be able to offer this great gift of salvation, Christ need to save humanity from that fall. To overcome death, the judgement of Adam. Hell does not exist except that Christ came. Man had a sentence of permanent death, a sentence from which he is totally incapable of extracating himself.

[Thaddaeus]

Arthur Durnan,

I do read you. So then we are wonderfully saved FOREVER, and SEALED by the Holy Spirit "UNTIL the Day of redemption," then we're placed "in the heavens with Christ" - and then, according to your retort, we become LOST AGAIN; our everlasting salvation WASN'T FOREVER after all! And our SEALING UNTIL "the day of redemption" becomes UNSEALED! And also we're BROUGHT BACK DOWN from the heavens with Jesus with our OLD eternal address RESTORED AGAIN! Big Query: Pray tell, what were you SAVED FROM in the first place when you trusted Jesus as personal Savior? Certainly NOT from hell & eternal damnation, for THAT is NOW AGAIN your destiny!! I truly love this quite unique (and quite despairing) "Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-Saved Again, Then Re-Lost" on into the darkest night. Wasn't the "original Calvary" strong enough to save you - and guarantee heaven?! Evidently not.

Your reply shows how confused one can get when they do not understand the correlation between man's existance and purpose on one hand, and the fall and salvation on the other.

Pray tell, what were you SAVED FROM in the first place when you trusted Jesus as personal Savior?

The problem here is that you are conflagating two distinct aspects which is borne out in the above statement. You seem to think that man is saved from our purpose of being created. You totally missed the fall and salvation from the fall.

To make it much clearer, Man was created to be a creature that would be in communion and union with God, bringing this created universe back to God in a living sacrifice so that He could be all in all. This communion was to be free, thus we were created to be free, communal, and unique.

For our discusion here we will bypass the fall and salvation from the fall. What we do as believers is simply accept by faith the work of Christ, so that we may freely work with God in Union and communion with Him, not just here on this earth in our earthly life but for an eternity.

Now, something happened on the way to that completion of purpose. Man, being free, through the commandment chose to buy the lie of Satan. Man fell, lost life, became mortal. Lot the ability to attain immortality by remaining in union with God, communing with Him in this created order.

Since man, a dead human being, cannot give or restore himself back to life, someone else would be necessary. That is Christ and that is what He accomplished on the Cross. Overcame the judgment against Adam, restored life to mankind, so man with God could continue freely working together. What Christ did, man cannot lose, change, even reject. Man is powerless against the Almighty in this respect. But man was created to be free, able to freely choose whom he would serve, love and obey. Christ's work on the Cross enable mankind, having been restored, reconciled, redeemed, justified back to God, to fulfil our created mandated, sovereignly designed purpose of our very existance.

When we sin, when we willfully disobey and do not seek repentance, we have chosen to depart from God, just as much as Adam did with the original sin. But the second part of Christ's work on the Cross was atonement. This enables man, in this sinful world, where sin still exists ,and he still has a fallen human nature, where Satan is still at work, to be and remain IN Christ through repentance and forgiveness of our sins.

The ultimate goal of God, the salvation of each individual has always been a free choice, He sovereignly created it to be so. That we can fall or depart from that union is man's choice or that he remains IN Christ is his choice. A choice for which he will recieve just reward, heaven or hell.

Without Christ correcting the fall, heaven and hell do not exist. Satan would have been a total victor over Christ and His created order. Do you really think that an Almighty God will let even one rock to be lost to Satan, let alone even one of his most prized creatures, created in His Image to be lost, that is lost and destroyed by death through the judgement of Adam.

Wasn't the "original Calvary" strong enough to save you - and guarantee heaven?! Evidently not.

The purpose of Calvary was not to guarantee heaven, but make heaven and hell possible. It prevented the total destruction of the created order and every human being. The Giver of life would have been unable to restore life to His created order. That is the love, mercy and justice of the Cross and God's love, mercy and justice toward man, a human being created in His Image to be immortal, eternal and in union with HIM.

I would say that your view has severely limited the power and sovereignty of God. In fact, it negates any power whatsoever. If God even lost one soul, it would be a fact that He cannot save any soul. Adam and the judgement against him would be the end of the created order. It would have been eternally in sin, in death, in destruction and the end of every human being at some point in time. Death is final and irreparable without Christ.

[TomPJr]

hrydavid,

Im not sure I get exactly what you mean. What is the other type of eternal life you are talking about?

Hell is also eternal life, spiritual death, separation spiritually from God.

Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Ezek 37:1-14,They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work. Man needed life. Man needed to be restored to the creature he was before the fall, capable of being in union with God for an eternity. To be able to offer this great gift of salvation, Christ need to save humanity from that fall. To overcome death, the judgement of Adam. Hell does not exist except that Christ came. Man had a sentence of permanent death, a sentence from which he is totally incapable of extracating himself.

your own statement contradicts itself...

Hell is not everlasting life, it is everlasting death!

God is not going to let someone burn endlessly. They will be burnt up. this concept is all throughout the bible.

at first glance it does appear that way, but will a closer look, comparing the scriptures we find that our Awsome merciful Creator will ultimately destroy the wicked, not let them burn for eternity in unending torture.

How could anyone love such a God if he did that?

The bible talks about the wicked being destroyed and that they will perish, and be no more. they will turn to ashes and be burnt up like the chaff on the threshing floor.

The gift of God is everlasting life....the wages of sin is death. Quite opposite.

[stevehut]

Where is it written in scripture that God removed that continuos right of atonement

Back up a little there... Ypou speak of "rights"?

Where is it written that Christians have any rights at all, before a sinless God?

Steve

[Floatingaxe]

Where is it written in scripture that God removed that continuos right of atonement (Yom Kippur) by the sacrifice of Christ?

Do you mean RITE of atonement? Because it is not a right.

[stevehut]

• 1: What was Yom Kippur for? (Google it if you are unfamiliar)
  
  2: Why did God allow for the atonement of sin (Yom Kippur) consistently throughout the Old Testament?
  
  3: Where is it written in scripture that God removed continuos atonement (Yom Kippur) by the sacrifice of Christ?
  

1- Ooh, Ooh, pick me, I know this one! It's the Day of Atonement.

2- Because the Messiah had not yet come.

3- Um, probably because the sacrifice of Christ is the fulfillment of the Law?

BTW, I have no problem with people celebrating YK, if they find themselves edified by such customs. They do it as part of their worship of God, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Steve

[TomPJr]

your own statement contradicts itself...

Hell is not everlasting life, it is everlasting death!

God is not going to let someone burn endlessly. They will be burnt up. this concept is all throughout the bible.

at first glance it does appear that way, but will a closer look, comparing the scriptures we find that our Awsome merciful Creator will ultimately destroy the wicked, not let them burn for eternity in unending torture.

How could anyone love such a God if he did that?

The bible talks about the wicked being destroyed and that they will perish, and be no more. they will turn to ashes and be burnt up like the chaff on the threshing floor.

The gift of God is everlasting life....the wages of sin is death. Quite opposite.

Tom,

Actually those who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night forever -

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death and hell will be cast into the same lake of fire -

Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell, Satan, and his angels are all being cast into the same lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If you just take those texts as they are translated in our language without regards to the rest of the bible you will definately come to your conclusion.....

but, with further study and comparison with the rest of the bible, we can see what it means rather than what it says.

remember the bible says that Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever.

Sodom and Gommorah suffered the vengence of hell fire and brimestone...and it says that there smoke went up forever and ever...

Forever in the original language doesn't necessarily mean forever in our language. It means as long as the age (or subject) may last.

The slaves were spoken of as being a slave to their earthly master forever....but that was actually meaning until they died.

there are many more but I don't want to take up too much space.....hopefully you get the point.

God is so merciful.