Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Ovedya]

oc--Okay, under the assumption Anninias and Sapphira was Christians their punishment for lying to the Holy Ghost was immediately being transported to being with the Lord for all eternity as they were rewarded for their sins which doesn't make a lot of sense to me being rewarded for evil.

That would depend on your understanding of what happens to the believer upon their death. I personally don't believe that believers get "immediately transported to heaven" when they die. Of course, the human spirit returns to the Lord, but it is not the conscious part of our being. The reward given to the kingdom people is after the resurrection, when the wedding feast of the Lamb takes place. There is a dispensational punishment to disobedient believers, which is exclusion from that feast.

oc--So what you are saying is that a Christian can be a tare? That is very confusing Ovedya because when most think of Christians nominal or otherwise they are born again believers. Tares are as I understand it where people who were never saved in the first place so they are not really Christians at all and never were. I have no problem with tares being in the church but you language is very confusing because I've never considered tares to be Christians even though they may attend church.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you, OC. Let me see if I can break this down a little:

When I wrote "nominal Christian" I mean "Christian in name only." As I'm sure you know very well, there are people who "go to church on Sunday" but have never actually ever experienced regeneration. There are people in the world who call themselves "Christian," and may agree with all of the tenats of the church, all the doctrines, teachings, etc., but have never actually believed into the Lord Jesus.

Almost anybody can call themselves "Christian," but relatively few in comparison to those who do, actually are believers. And that's where I will sometimes make the distinction between a Christian and a believer. All believers can be Christians, but not all Christians are believers.

Like the tares in the field that look like the wheat, the tares in the church "look like" believers. They act according to the practices of the church and they even talk like Christians. But they are not believers. They do not have the life of God.

oc--okay then your view of dispensational punishment sounds a lot like the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. As you are saying that being spewed out in Revelation 3:16 is a dispensational punishment. Can you provide any scriptures to back this position up?

I don't believe in purgatory as the Catholics do. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is false. As far as Scriptures are concerned, I already gave you one. Verse 19is clear that there is a punishment in store for those who are lukewarm. Also check out 1 Cor. 4:5; Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12; 1 Cor. 3:13-15 (cf. ; Mark. 9:49 (cf. Mal. 3:2))

[TomPJr]

Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is false according the Lord's words:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me;

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

27 My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 and the Father are one. " (John 10:25-30)

The future tense in verse 28 is in reference to perishing. The present tense is in reference to jesus' giving His sheep eternal life. You are confusing the nature of God's life with "living forever." The nature of God's life is eternal. That is, it is divine, uncreated, indestructable, abd ever existing from eternity past to eternity future. This is the life given to the believers, and it is by this life that they will be resurrected. All true believers posess the eternal life of God

If what you are saying is true, then the rest of the people don't have eternal life, because Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

So the people that are not his sheep don't have eternal life...correct?

That would mean that the dead wicked are not alive in another dimension, but that they are lifeless awaiting the resurection, and final punishment.

The reason I bring this up is because Floating axe thinks that everyone is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality.

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

(again....this happens after Jesus returns with his rewards)

only god has immortality...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keepe this commandement without spot, vnrebukeable, vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed, and onely Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:16 Who onely hath immortalitie, dwelling in the light, which no man can approch vnto, whom no man hath seene, nor can see: to whom be honour and power euerlasting. Amen.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be.

Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

We will not have eternal life until the resurection of life.

The only thing that we have right now is the promise of eternal life, if we confess, ask forgiveness, and repent.

You still have the free will to take the broad easy road into destruction...

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is false according the Lord's words:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me;

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

27 My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 and the Father are one. " (John 10:25-30)

The future tense in verse 28 is in reference to perishing. The present tense is in reference to jesus' giving His sheep eternal life. You are confusing the nature of God's life with "living forever." The nature of God's life is eternal. That is, it is divine, uncreated, indestructable, abd ever existing from eternity past to eternity future. This is the life given to the believers, and it is by this life that they will be resurrected. All true believers posess the eternal life of God

If what you are saying is true, then the rest of the people don't have eternal life, because Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

So the people that are not his sheep don't have eternal life...correct?

That would mean that the dead wicked are not alive in another dimension, but that they are lifeless awaiting the resurection, and final punishment.

The reason I bring this up is because Floating axe thinks that everyone is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality.

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

(again....this happens after Jesus returns with his rewards)

only god has immortality...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keepe this commandement without spot, vnrebukeable, vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed, and onely Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:16 Who onely hath immortalitie, dwelling in the light, which no man can approch vnto, whom no man hath seene, nor can see: to whom be honour and power euerlasting. Amen.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be.

Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

We will not have eternal life until the resurection of life.

The only thing that we have right now is the promise of eternal life, if we confess, ask forgiveness, and repent.

You still have the free will to take the broad easy road into destruction...

Why don't you plunk your money down and get yourself a good translation of the Bible that we can actually read? This is not impressive.

[TomPJr]

If once saved you cannot lose your savlation, then what about the unpardinable sin?

If I am not saved, then that sin doesn't applt to me.

The unpardonable sin is the attribution of the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. The Pharisees did this, and they certainly showed no signs of being regenerated.

The unpardonable sin does apply to an unbeliever, because that is the only type who can commit that particular sin!

In fact...all sin, unrepented of, is unpardonable! So, unbelievers may as well have committed it anyhow.

so if you, Floating axe, do not repent of your sins, then you will forfiet your salvation...correct?

[Floatingaxe]

If once saved you cannot lose your savlation, then what about the unpardinable sin?

If I am not saved, then that sin doesn't applt to me.

The unpardonable sin is the attribution of the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. The Pharisees did this, and they certainly showed no signs of being regenerated.

The unpardonable sin does apply to an unbeliever, because that is the only type who can commit that particular sin!

In fact...all sin, unrepented of, is unpardonable! So, unbelievers may as well have committed it anyhow.

so if you, Floating axe, do not repent of your sins, then you will forfiet your salvation...correct?

If I have never repented, I do forfeit God's plan of salvation for me. God can't and won't forgive that which is not confessed, so it would sit there like a huge millstone around my neck.

[TomPJr]

Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is false according the Lord's words:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me;

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

27 My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 and the Father are one. " (John 10:25-30)

The future tense in verse 28 is in reference to perishing. The present tense is in reference to jesus' giving His sheep eternal life. You are confusing the nature of God's life with "living forever." The nature of God's life is eternal. That is, it is divine, uncreated, indestructable, abd ever existing from eternity past to eternity future. This is the life given to the believers, and it is by this life that they will be resurrected. All true believers posess the eternal life of God

If what you are saying is true, then the rest of the people don't have eternal life, because Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

So the people that are not his sheep don't have eternal life...correct?

That would mean that the dead wicked are not alive in another dimension, but that they are lifeless awaiting the resurection, and final punishment.

The reason I bring this up is because Floating axe thinks that everyone is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality.

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

(again....this happens after Jesus returns with his rewards)

only god has immortality...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keepe this commandement without spot, vnrebukeable, vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed, and onely Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:16 Who onely hath immortalitie, dwelling in the light, which no man can approch vnto, whom no man hath seene, nor can see: to whom be honour and power euerlasting. Amen.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be.

Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

We will not have eternal life until the resurection of life.

The only thing that we have right now is the promise of eternal life, if we confess, ask forgiveness, and repent.

You still have the free will to take the broad easy road into destruction...

Why don't you plunk your money down and get yourself a good translation of the Bible that we can actually read? This is not impressive.

your cool buddy!

That kind of attitude does nothing but promote resentment....

The bible I quoted is the 1611 king james and reads the same as the new ones with few miner exceptions such as the u's and the v's are switched.

Your statement just tells me that you are immature, and that you just dodged the issue, and avoided addressing the clear scripture I quoted.

[TomPJr]

If once saved you cannot lose your savlation, then what about the unpardinable sin?

If I am not saved, then that sin doesn't applt to me.

The unpardonable sin is the attribution of the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. The Pharisees did this, and they certainly showed no signs of being regenerated.

The unpardonable sin does apply to an unbeliever, because that is the only type who can commit that particular sin!

In fact...all sin, unrepented of, is unpardonable! So, unbelievers may as well have committed it anyhow.

so if you, Floating axe, do not repent of your sins, then you will forfiet your salvation...correct?

If I have never repented, I do forfeit God's plan of salvation for me. God can't and won't forgive that which is not confessed, so it would sit there like a huge millstone around my neck.

What about the sin that you will commit tomarrow?

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is false according the Lord's words:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me;

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

27 My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 and the Father are one. " (John 10:25-30)

The future tense in verse 28 is in reference to perishing. The present tense is in reference to jesus' giving His sheep eternal life. You are confusing the nature of God's life with "living forever." The nature of God's life is eternal. That is, it is divine, uncreated, indestructable, abd ever existing from eternity past to eternity future. This is the life given to the believers, and it is by this life that they will be resurrected. All true believers posess the eternal life of God

If what you are saying is true, then the rest of the people don't have eternal life, because Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

So the people that are not his sheep don't have eternal life...correct?

That would mean that the dead wicked are not alive in another dimension, but that they are lifeless awaiting the resurection, and final punishment.

The reason I bring this up is because Floating axe thinks that everyone is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality.

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

(again....this happens after Jesus returns with his rewards)

only god has immortality...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keepe this commandement without spot, vnrebukeable, vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed, and onely Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:16 Who onely hath immortalitie, dwelling in the light, which no man can approch vnto, whom no man hath seene, nor can see: to whom be honour and power euerlasting. Amen.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be.

Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

We will not have eternal life until the resurection of life.

The only thing that we have right now is the promise of eternal life, if we confess, ask forgiveness, and repent.

You still have the free will to take the broad easy road into destruction...

Why don't you plunk your money down and get yourself a good translation of the Bible that we can actually read? This is not impressive.

your cool buddy!

That kind of attitude does nothing but promote resentment....

The bible I quoted is the 1611 king james and reads the same as the new ones with few miner exceptions such as the u's and the v's are switched.

Your statement just tells me that you are immature, and that you just dodged the issue, and avoided addressing the clear scripture I quoted.

I am not immature, but I do think that a readable copy of scripture is more helpful, especially to those who truly are immature believers. It's just tedious reading, is all, especially when copious amounts of it is pasted here for all.

[Floatingaxe]

If once saved you cannot lose your savlation, then what about the unpardinable sin?

If I am not saved, then that sin doesn't applt to me.

The unpardonable sin is the attribution of the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. The Pharisees did this, and they certainly showed no signs of being regenerated.

The unpardonable sin does apply to an unbeliever, because that is the only type who can commit that particular sin!

In fact...all sin, unrepented of, is unpardonable! So, unbelievers may as well have committed it anyhow.

so if you, Floating axe, do not repent of your sins, then you will forfiet your salvation...correct?

If I have never repented, I do forfeit God's plan of salvation for me. God can't and won't forgive that which is not confessed, so it would sit there like a huge millstone around my neck.

What about the sin that you will commit tomarrow?

The sin I commit tomorrow, and today, I repent of immediately...so as to keep short accounts with God. That is our reasonable responsibility before the Lord if we want unbroken fellowship with Him.

[TomPJr]

Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is false according the Lord's words:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me;

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.

27 My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

30 and the Father are one. " (John 10:25-30)

The future tense in verse 28 is in reference to perishing. The present tense is in reference to jesus' giving His sheep eternal life. You are confusing the nature of God's life with "living forever." The nature of God's life is eternal. That is, it is divine, uncreated, indestructable, abd ever existing from eternity past to eternity future. This is the life given to the believers, and it is by this life that they will be resurrected. All true believers posess the eternal life of God

If what you are saying is true, then the rest of the people don't have eternal life, because Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.

So the people that are not his sheep don't have eternal life...correct?

That would mean that the dead wicked are not alive in another dimension, but that they are lifeless awaiting the resurection, and final punishment.

The reason I bring this up is because Floating axe thinks that everyone is immortal, but the bible says that only God has immortality.

I believe that you are making a big assumption when you say that his sheep recieve their eternal life in this life. The scripture that you quoted does say that he gives it to them, but not when. If you consider the rest of the scriptures, you should be able to see that they don't recieve their eternal life, untill the resurection, when Jesus comes back.

read this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(this is speaking of the 2nd coming of Christ and the resurection of the just....notice that they have to put on immortality...they didn't already have it. They only had the promise of it, and it is conditional.)

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O graue, where is thy victorie?

(again....this happens after Jesus returns with his rewards)

only god has immortality...

1Ti 6:14 That thou keepe this commandement without spot, vnrebukeable, vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed, and onely Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords:

1Ti 6:16 Who onely hath immortalitie, dwelling in the light, which no man can approch vnto, whom no man hath seene, nor can see: to whom be honour and power euerlasting. Amen.

Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be.

Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

We will not have eternal life until the resurection of life.

The only thing that we have right now is the promise of eternal life, if we confess, ask forgiveness, and repent.

You still have the free will to take the broad easy road into destruction...

Why don't you plunk your money down and get yourself a good translation of the Bible that we can actually read? This is not impressive.

your cool buddy!

That kind of attitude does nothing but promote resentment....

The bible I quoted is the 1611 king james and reads the same as the new ones with few miner exceptions such as the u's and the v's are switched.

Your statement just tells me that you are immature, and that you just dodged the issue, and avoided addressing the clear scripture I quoted.

I am not immature, but I do think that a readable copy of scripture is more helpful, especially to those who truly are immature believers. It's just tedious reading, is all, especially when copious amounts of it is pasted here for all.

copy that....

I copy and past from e-sword, and the new translation has all the strongs numbers by each word, so I thought I was doing you a favor. I thought the 1611 was easier to read then sorting throught the concordance numbers.