Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Iryssa]

I would just like to say...this discussion is coming up on 110 pages.

Is that a record for longest-running single-thread debate?

[Guest lnj]

I've had my 2 cents worth on this thread before but the reality is ..to be relaxed in your walk with Christ is to be complacent in your Walk. Complacency leads to laziness which can in turn lead to living a life that is UNFIT(lukewarm)...unfit to be identified as a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST.

[Kabowd]

No, the idea that we can lose our salvation is pagan in its origin. That's what I was saying. The reason is that it ultimately makes salvation a man centered experience instead of a God centered one.

It is not man centered. Tell me this. Is this scripture man centered of God centered -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If I do the will of God is it man centered or God centered? This scriptures says that those who "Do the will of my Father" will enter in. Only man is required on this earth to do the will of God. If I am required to do it them it is "I" that is doing it.

God is requiring man to do his will in order to enter into heaven, but your understanding is superseding this because it doesn't back up your belief.

Here is another one -

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Now, keeping God's commandments man centered or God centered? The will of God is that we keep his commandments, but according to you that is "Man Centered".

What does this scripture say to you -

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now, we know that only Christians have their names in the book of life. If I can't lose my salvation then why is this warning being made?

Is this warning of my name being taken out man centered or God centered?

Since you are unable and unwilling to do the above (exegetical justification), why should your interpretation be accepted?

Not everybody is educated in Greek like you are. So, just because somebody doesn't give the "exegetical justification" like you do does not mean that they are wrong.

I have explained over and over again what it is to "work out or salvation". It is NOT maintaininng our salvation. It is living according to the obedience set forth by the will of God. The works we do are the works of mortiying of our flesh in repenting of the sins that will take us to hell.

People are miss interpreting this verse -

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is saying that God works with us "to will" and "to do his good pleasure". This does not say that he does the work for us.

A definition of the word will is - to desire

This says that he works with us to desire to do his will and to do his good pleasure.

Even though we are saved by grace through faith we are still called to do the will of God. What I am trying to get though is that we can lose that salvation that was promised if we do not the will of God. No matter how many times I point that out it is ignored.

The will of God is not performing works like people think they are. They are not nice little things we do for people. Our works we were created for and ordained to walk in are the works of righteousness. Since we know that the works of the flesh is sin, then the works of righteousness is repentance from those sins and avoiding temptation to give into them. It is the renewing of my mind and mortifying the flesh. This is what working out our salvation is and God is there to help us with our desire to do it.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Now, if we choose not to do these things we will lose the salvation promised to us because no sin will enter into heaven.

Unfortunately, you're simply repeating yourself. You don't even engage in conversation, you just list verses (plucking them out of their context) and highlight the points you think support your stance. Then all you do is say what you *think* the verse means to you. AK has tried to educate you on the proper way to study and interpret Scripture, you ignore it. You prefer to read the bible prima facie, instead of put the extra time and effort into learning what it might actually mean. Of course, I understand this would be threatening because it would destroy the presuppositions you hold already. But that's truly a shame because there is so much you're missing out on by not understanding the depth and extent of God's grace. It would be much more beneficial if you would respond directly to AK's interpretations of each verse (with a counter-interpretation, using proper exegesis), rather than just repeat previous posts with no foundation behind what you're saying. Long lists of Scriptures don't constitute evidence to support your view, and these types of responses also indicate you'd rather state what you believe rather than actually discuss the issue with someone else. A discussion involves responding to what someone else has said. However, the way you approach this is much more like a platform where you simply insist what you believe. Using your method of "interpretation" I could make a very strong case that it's okay to kill babies, and by the way, this is also how cults are born. It is a dangerous and tragic way to approach the Word of God.

For about the 10th time now, when are those who are against eternal security going to deal with Hosea? Or God's covenant with Abraham and Israel? You see...it's not as simple as plucking a verse here and there and trying to proof-text your way to a conclusion. You need to look at Scripture as a whole and within the Hebrew context it was written in. These are issues that have been repeatedly ignored....

[Kabowd]

I've had my 2 cents worth on this thread before but the reality is ..to be relaxed in your walk with Christ is to be complacent in your Walk. Complacency leads to laziness which can in turn lead to living a life that is UNFIT(lukewarm)...unfit to be identified as a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST.

I haven't seen a single person advocate being "relaxed" or "complacent" in your walk with Christ.

[apothanein kerdos]

No, the idea that we can lose our salvation is pagan in its origin. That's what I was saying. The reason is that it ultimately makes salvation a man centered experience instead of a God centered one.

It is not man centered. Tell me this. Is this scripture man centered of God centered -

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If I do the will of God is it man centered or God centered? This scriptures says that those who "Do the will of my Father" will enter in. Only man is required on this earth to do the will of God. If I am required to do it them it is "I" that is doing it.

God is requiring man to do his will in order to enter into heaven, but your understanding is superseding this because it doesn't back up your belief.

Here is another one -

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Now, keeping God's commandments man centered or God centered? The will of God is that we keep his commandments, but according to you that is "Man Centered".

What does this scripture say to you -

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now, we know that only Christians have their names in the book of life. If I can't lose my salvation then why is this warning being made?

Is this warning of my name being taken out man centered or God centered?

Since you are unable and unwilling to do the above (exegetical justification), why should your interpretation be accepted?

Not everybody is educated in Greek like you are. So, just because somebody doesn't give the "exegetical justification" like you do does not mean that they are wrong.

I have explained over and over again what it is to "work out or salvation". It is NOT maintaininng our salvation. It is living according to the obedience set forth by the will of God. The works we do are the works of mortiying of our flesh in repenting of the sins that will take us to hell.

People are miss interpreting this verse -

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is saying that God works with us "to will" and "to do his good pleasure". This does not say that he does the work for us.

A definition of the word will is - to desire

This says that he works with us to desire to do his will and to do his good pleasure.

Even though we are saved by grace through faith we are still called to do the will of God. What I am trying to get though is that we can lose that salvation that was promised if we do not the will of God. No matter how many times I point that out it is ignored.

The will of God is not performing works like people think they are. They are not nice little things we do for people. Our works we were created for and ordained to walk in are the works of righteousness. Since we know that the works of the flesh is sin, then the works of righteousness is repentance from those sins and avoiding temptation to give into them. It is the renewing of my mind and mortifying the flesh. This is what working out our salvation is and God is there to help us with our desire to do it.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Now, if we choose not to do these things we will lose the salvation promised to us because no sin will enter into heaven.

Unfortunately, you're simply repeating yourself. You don't even engage in conversation, you just list verses (plucking them out of their context) and highlight the points you think support your stance. Then all you do is say what you *think* the verse means to you. AK has tried to educate you on the proper way to study and interpret Scripture, you ignore it. You prefer to read the bible prima facie, instead of put the extra time and effort into learning what it might actually mean. Of course, I understand this would be threatening because it would destroy the presuppositions you hold already. But that's truly a shame because there is so much you're missing out on by not understanding the depth and extent of God's grace. It would be much more beneficial if you would respond directly to AK's interpretations of each verse (with a counter-interpretation, using proper exegesis), rather than just repeat previous posts with no foundation behind what you're saying. Long lists of Scriptures don't constitute evidence to support your view, and these types of responses also indicate you'd rather state what you believe rather than actually discuss the issue with someone else. A discussion involves responding to what someone else has said. However, the way you approach this is much more like a platform where you simply insist what you believe. Using your method of "interpretation" I could make a very strong case that it's okay to kill babies, and by the way, this is also how cults are born. It is a dangerous and tragic way to approach the Word of God.

For about the 10th time now, when are those who are against eternal security going to deal with Hosea? Or God's covenant with Abraham and Israel? You see...it's not as simple as plucking a verse here and there and trying to proof-text your way to a conclusion. You need to look at Scripture as a whole and within the Hebrew context it was written in. These are issues that have been repeatedly ignored....

[Eliyahuw]

I've had my 2 cents worth on this thread before but the reality is ..to be relaxed in your walk with Christ is to be complacent in your Walk. Complacency leads to laziness which can in turn lead to living a life that is UNFIT(lukewarm)...unfit to be identified as a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST.

No one has advocated complacency. But christ is not the author of fear. Why would we have to live in abject fear of losing ones salvation. Why would anyone follow christ if he can just take away what he gave us! It would be rather stupid to live the christian life being a christian and then to suddenly lose it all for one sin comitted in moment of human weakness..

Christ isn't that cold hearted! It also would make his death on the cross absolutely meaningless.

[Vickilynn]

No one has advocated complacency. But christ is not the author of fear. Why would we have to live in abject fear of losing ones salvation. Why would anyone follow christ if he can just take away what he gave us! It would be rather stupid to live the christian life being a christian and then to suddenly lose it all for one sin comitted in moment of human weakness..

Christ isn't that cold hearted! It also would make his death on the cross absolutely meaningless.

Shalom,

Forgive me for not reading this entire thread, but there are simply too many pages of the same arguments.

I would say that from a NOT Once Saved Always Saved stance, I don't live in fear of "losing" my salvation, for it cannot be "lost" and no one or nothing can take it from me.

However, the important difference is that I, through my own choices, can turn my back on my salvation and choose NOT to accept it any longer and thus not inherit eternal life. if I choose sin over G-d, if I choose not to serve Jesus, if I choose satan over G-d, if I turn my back on Him, I am essentially choosing eternal death over life.

Our Father, being Who He is, did not make robots of us. We must choose to accept His free gift through Jesus and choose to remain in Him. If we do not, G-d will not force us to accept salvation.

You must understand, sin cannot cause us to lose our salvation. Our choice to reject salvation and Jesus cause us to hand back our salvation and thus we are no longer saved.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Vickilynn

[Vickilynn]

"As becometh saints" means Christians. This is just one of the lists that we are given of sins that will keep us out of heaven. If I die not repenting of these sins or Christ comes back to find I have not repented of these sins then I won't go to heaven.

As Christians our names are written in the Book of Life. If I choose to hold onto my sins and not overcome them then my name will be taken out.

If I don't overcome my sins my name will be taken out -

If on judgment day my name is not in the Book of Life I will be cast into the lake of fire.

Okay. So in your view unconfessed sins or the incapacity to overcome sins are both means by which Christians can perish in the lake of fire.

How then do you deal with what the Lord Jesus said about all those who believe into Him?

"And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, cf. 3:16)

That is true as long as we are in the grace of God, but I can take myself right out of that grace by returning to the world of sin I was saved from.

Instead of compiling all the scriptures together to get a clear understanding people are basing their beliefs off of just a few choice scriptures. When this is done it creates contradictions of the gospel.

Outside of what you just said we do have scriptures that say that Christians can go to hell for unrepented sins just like sinners will. I keep repeating this scripture and it keeps getting ignored -

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This is spoke of Christians to Christians.

But the Lord Jesus applied absolutely no conditions to His statement at all.

So how is it that you find a conditional salvation, where Jesus did not frame it as such?

And if all the Scriptures are God-breathed, and do not contradict one another, then what difference should it make if I use one or ten?

Shalom Ovedya,

I know you weren't addressing me here , but may I jump in?

Yes, Jesus does apply conditions to His statement about eternal life and he does that in answer to your 3rd question.

The Scriptures are all G-d-breathed, we agree on that, but the context is everything concerning how to understand what is being said and to whom. So, we use the Bible and the context of the verses to support itself. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves and that is why Once Saved Always Saved is not supported throughout the Scriptures (to my understanding of the Scriptures). The theme of obedience is supported throughout the Scriptures as well as faith and choice.

So, salvation IS conditional and it is only our choice whether we decide to abide in Jesus and remain saved.

Can we look at the Scripture that is being referred to?

John 10: 25

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

This is exactly the truth. No one and nothing is able to take away our salvation if we choose to remain in Jesus.

We cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can however, turn from it and reject it.

The Scripture above refers to the fact that no one can take our salvation. Plainly and simply. The statement does not negate the conditions found elsewhere that we must abide in Jesus to remain saved. So, there is no contradiction.

But, again, it does matter when using verses out of context because the meaning is different.

[Ovedya]

Shalom Ovedya,

I know you weren't addressing me here , but may I jump in?

Yes, Jesus does apply conditions to His statement about eternal life and he does that in answer to your 3rd question.

The Scriptures are all G-d-breathed, we agree on that, but the context is everything concerning how to understand what is being said and to whom. So, we use the Bible and the context of the verses to support itself. The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves and that is why Once Saved Always Saved is not supported throughout the Scriptures (to my understanding of the Scriptures). The theme of obedience is supported throughout the Scriptures as well as faith and choice.

So, salvation IS conditional and it is only our choice whether we decide to abide in Jesus and remain saved.

Can we look at the Scripture that is being referred to?

John 10: 25

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

This is exactly the truth. No one and nothing is able to take away our salvation if we choose to remain in Jesus.

We cannot "lose" our salvation.

We can however, turn from it and reject it.

The Scripture above refers to the fact that no one can take our salvation. Plainly and simply. The statement does not negate the conditions found elsewhere that we must abide in Jesus to remain saved. So, there is no contradiction.

But, again, it does matter when using verses out of context because the meaning is different.

I see. So then Jesus simply did not specify that we could "walk away from our salvation."

Then should I assume that Jesus was either being deceptive or simply vague concerning salvation?

Because He did say, "they shall by no means perish." If my "walking away" becomes a means by which I will perish, then I am making the Lord Jesus a liar.

Am I not?

Is the sacrifice of Christ beholden to my incapacity to keep from sin?

[Ovedya]

By the way, I'd like to add that the repeated statement, "We cannot "lose" our salvation, but we can walk away from it" is just semantics in terms of the end result.

Whether God "takes away" our salvation, or we "walk away" from it, the end result is the same: lost salvation.

So let's avoid the splitting of hairs, okay?

If you are arguing that you can "walk away" from savlation, then essentially you are also arguing that salvation can be lost.

Now, I would like to introduce the following argument against OSNAS:

Boiling it down to its very essence, saying that salvation can be lost (or "walked away from, if you prefer it for conscience sake) places control over salvation on the believer alone. In other words, God gave Christ, Christ became the author and perfecter of salvation, and Christ reliquished entire control over the efficacy of His blood to the believer who is still flawed enough to be disobedient to God.

So God, the initiator, author, and perfector of salvation, has absolutely no control over what the believer does or does not do with the gift that He freely gave to his creation. Therefore, God cannot truly be God, because He has become beholden to His creation in terms of salvation. He is no longer omnipotent, because He has reliquished the power of salvation - the salvation which authored and offered freely - to his creation.