Archaeological and scientific evidence in support of the Bible

[SoulGrind]

I'll have to search around for the exact resources later, as per the OP, but I mention this now so I don't forget, and in case anyone else wants to look it up. Under which Pharaoh did Moses live? I remember being very interested in this at school. We have quite a good, solid record of the times of reigns of Pharaohs given the age of the period, so 1) who does the Bible say expelled Moses from the land, 2) who does the archaeological record say was reigning at the time, if we know, and 3) are the two stories compatable?

That is an AWESOME question - I too will do a bit of research myself - let's see if we "collide" in agreement! ;-)

However, it will have to wait a day or so (on my part) as I won't be online for the rest of this evening.

[secondeve]

This is more of a note about evolution, but I think it may well be relevant. I heard about this fish fossil on the radio today and decided to look it up. http://www.ahc.gov.au/publications/geofossil/gogo.html

Here's a quote - which, for me, raise some good points in favour of fish evolving into land animals.

'One bizarre group of placoderms that was common throughout the world was the antiarch, which had external bone-covered arms. Bothriolepis, an antiarch found at Gogo, had appendages that were almost as long as its body. It also had lung-like organs, and it has been suggested that the fish used its arms and 'lungs' to move from pool to pool in search of a diet of rotting vegetation.'

[apothanein kerdos]

http://www.biblehistory.net/Chap15.htm - This site has an interesting synopsis of events. Working exactly from Biblical dates, they say that Moses must have been born in the time of Thustmose. The site also cites Josephus as saying that the daughter of Pharaoh who raised Moses was called Thermuthis. The site makes much of the fact that this name sounds a bit like Thustmose; however, they also mention that the historical record says:

'According to history, Pharaoh Thutmose and his wife Queen Ahmose had two daughters, Neferubity, of whom little is known, and Hatshepsut who later became Queen and bore the title 'King's daughter'.'

So, no daughter called Thermuthis, which means that Josephus is most likely incorrect. Does the Bible use this name? No, but in Jewish tradition, her name was Bathya, which doesn't line up, either.

Conclusion: there is no proof either way. We can be fairly sure that Hapshepsut did not raise Moses, and although we might speculate that her sister Neferubity did, there is no archaeological evidence to support or deny such a theory.

The problem is you are trying to nail down a name that would have been hieroglyphic to begin with, translated into Hebrew/Greek/Latin and retranslated through the ages.

[Gerioke]

This is more of a note about evolution, but I think it may well be relevant. I heard about this fish fossil on the radio today and decided to look it up. http://www.ahc.gov.au/publications/geofossil/gogo.html

Here's a quote - which, for me, raise some good points in favour of fish evolving into land animals.

'One bizarre group of placoderms that was common throughout the world was the antiarch, which had external bone-covered arms. Bothriolepis, an antiarch found at Gogo, had appendages that were almost as long as its body. It also had lung-like organs, and it has been suggested that the fish used its arms and 'lungs' to move from pool to pool in search of a diet of rotting vegetation.'

If fish became mammals, why did mammals become whales?

[secondeve]

http://www.biblehistory.net/Chap15.htm - This site has an interesting synopsis of events. Working exactly from Biblical dates, they say that Moses must have been born in the time of Thustmose. The site also cites Josephus as saying that the daughter of Pharaoh who raised Moses was called Thermuthis. The site makes much of the fact that this name sounds a bit like Thustmose; however, they also mention that the historical record says:

'According to history, Pharaoh Thutmose and his wife Queen Ahmose had two daughters, Neferubity, of whom little is known, and Hatshepsut who later became Queen and bore the title 'King's daughter'.'

So, no daughter called Thermuthis, which means that Josephus is most likely incorrect. Does the Bible use this name? No, but in Jewish tradition, her name was Bathya, which doesn't line up, either.

Conclusion: there is no proof either way. We can be fairly sure that Hapshepsut did not raise Moses, and although we might speculate that her sister Neferubity did, there is no archaeological evidence to support or deny such a theory.

The problem is you are trying to nail down a name that would have been hieroglyphic to begin with, translated into Hebrew/Greek/Latin and retranslated through the ages.

Not so. Heiroglyphs weren't the only ancient Egyptian script. Most things of a day-to-day nature were written in Heiratic and, I think, a third script as well. Besides which, even if we only had heiroglyphs to go on, the Rosetta Stone was fairly helpful as a translating aid - so it's not all just stabs in the dark.

If fish became mammals, why did mammals become whales?

Who says they went from fish to land mammal to sea mammal - why not just go from fish to sea mammal? Obviously, not all of them would've ended up on the land.

Edited October 19, 2006 by secondeve

[apothanein kerdos]

Not so. Heiroglyphs weren't the only ancient Egyptian script. Most things of a day-to-day nature were written in Heiratic and, I think, a third script as well. Besides which, even if we only had heiroglyphs to go on, the Rosetta Stone was fairly helpful as a translating aid - so it's not all just stabs in the dark.

Right, but the problem still exists. Often in ancient times when translating from one language to another they would go be meanings and not as a literal transliteration (what we do). It is the equivalent to when Asians come over to the US and instead of going by their real name (such as "Jiquang) they instead go by "Paul". Well assume he becomes famous and both names begin to get translated into other languages that encounter the same difficulties...over time the name changes but the meaning doesn't.

Now, Josephus could STILL be wrong, and it is a non-issue. I am merely saying that it is not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

[secondeve]

Not so. Heiroglyphs weren't the only ancient Egyptian script. Most things of a day-to-day nature were written in Heiratic and, I think, a third script as well. Besides which, even if we only had heiroglyphs to go on, the Rosetta Stone was fairly helpful as a translating aid - so it's not all just stabs in the dark.

Right, but the problem still exists. Often in ancient times when translating from one language to another they would go be meanings and not as a literal transliteration (what we do). It is the equivalent to when Asians come over to the US and instead of going by their real name (such as "Jiquang) they instead go by "Paul". Well assume he becomes famous and both names begin to get translated into other languages that encounter the same difficulties...over time the name changes but the meaning doesn't.

Now, Josephus could STILL be wrong, and it is a non-issue. I am merely saying that it is not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.

Fair enough. I was only defending the fact that it's quite a stretch from one of those names to the other on its own.

[Gerioke]

http://www.biblehistory.net/Chap15.htm - This site has an interesting synopsis of events. Working exactly from Biblical dates, they say that Moses must have been born in the time of Thustmose. The site also cites Josephus as saying that the daughter of Pharaoh who raised Moses was called Thermuthis. The site makes much of the fact that this name sounds a bit like Thustmose; however, they also mention that the historical record says:

'According to history, Pharaoh Thutmose and his wife Queen Ahmose had two daughters, Neferubity, of whom little is known, and Hatshepsut who later became Queen and bore the title 'King's daughter'.'

So, no daughter called Thermuthis, which means that Josephus is most likely incorrect. Does the Bible use this name? No, but in Jewish tradition, her name was Bathya, which doesn't line up, either.

Conclusion: there is no proof either way. We can be fairly sure that Hapshepsut did not raise Moses, and although we might speculate that her sister Neferubity did, there is no archaeological evidence to support or deny such a theory.

The problem is you are trying to nail down a name that would have been hieroglyphic to begin with, translated into Hebrew/Greek/Latin and retranslated through the ages.

Not so. Heiroglyphs weren't the only ancient Egyptian script. Most things of a day-to-day nature were written in Heiratic and, I think, a third script as well. Besides which, even if we only had heiroglyphs to go on, the Rosetta Stone was fairly helpful as a translating aid - so it's not all just stabs in the dark.

If fish became mammals, why did mammals become whales?

Who says they went from fish to land mammal to sea mammal - why not just go from fish to sea mammal? Obviously, not all of them would've ended up on the land.

My son is a 7 year old expert on prehistoric animals. We have a video from the walking with prehistoric beasts series that states that a furry land mammal called ombulasitis (sp) evolved into a whale.

It seems that the forces that dictate the advancement of evolution are somewhat wishy-washy in what direction to go. Perhaps humans are really turning into monkeys. My guess is that evolutionists are the link in that chain.

[SoulGrind]

Wow - nothing like turning this thread on it's ear - anyway - I'm hoping this evening I can post some more achaeological and historical evidence - assuming anyone's still interested - I know secondeve has some thoughts about Moses and Pharoah which I'd be happy to ferret out.

Until tonight...

Blessings to all...

[undone]

It seems that the forces that dictate the advancement of evolution are somewhat wishy-washy in what direction to go. Perhaps humans are really turning into monkeys. My guess is that evolutionists are the link in that chain.

Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.