Pagan Origins and Christianity

[Kabowd]

I'm also getting a bald patch, so my daughter tells me...

And grey hair....which is not true.....I sprayed it silver for Christmas!

Oh no, I think that's what the pagans used to do to worship the follicle gods!

[Scarletprayers]

I'm also getting a bald patch, so my daughter tells me...

And grey hair....which is not true.....I sprayed it silver for Christmas!

Oh no, I think that's what the pagans used to do to worship the follicle gods!

good one honey!

[LadyRaven]

I read and type on automatic pilot, I'm afraid, - the same way I drive.

Oh My. Where are you driving again?

Ha ha. Wherever I end up.

It's true. Just the other day, I was so busy talking and driving that I ended up in Liverpool, about 40 miles out of the direction I was supposed to be going.

It's the age, I think. I find myself having these senior moments more and more recently.

I'm also getting a bald patch, so my daughter tells me...

And grey hair....which is not true.....I sprayed it silver for Christmas!

heh, when I lived in Threxton and worked at Lakenheath I used to get stuck in the roundabout halfway home if I wasn't careful. Got tired and wasn't paying attention, and not as...aggressive...as people who were used to the roundabouts.

Men who have no hair are closer to God...nothing in the way....

[Guest shiloh357]

I have to admit, I find studying origins of certain things interesting, but it is important not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The necktie that some men will wear to church on Sunday morning is a phallyc symbol. It is made to look like obelisk like Washington monument, or the obelisk that one finds in ancient Egypt, and even in front of the Vatican. All obelisks are phallyc symbols. The word "obelisk" is rooted in the word Baal. If you go to a church with a steeple, it is the same type of symbol. Does this stop anyone from going to a church with a steeple?

In a different thread I pointed out that the very English word "church" is was once a description of Duridic sun worship. Should we avoid going to churches on Sunday? I think such would be extreme.

I would also point out that in the past, I have found some inaccuracies in some of the historical data of the some of the "orgins" arguments. I won't get into all of that here, but I fear sometimes things get imbellished in order to make them appear worse than they really were.

The origin of something is not as important as what we are doing with it today. Far and away, most people are oblivious to where their traditions come from, but they serve the Lord with a sincere heart, and God honors that.

[Kabowd]

I have to admit, I find studying origins of certain things interesting, but it is important not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The necktie that some men will wear to church on Sunday morning is a phallyc symbol. It is made to look like obelisk like Washington monument, or the obelisk that one finds in ancient Egypt, and even in front of the Vatican. All obelisks are phallyc symbols. The word "obelisk" is rooted in the word Baal. If you go to a church with a steeple, it is the same type of symbol. Does this stop anyone from going to a church with a steeple?

In a different thread I pointed out that the very English word "church" is was once a description of Duridic sun worship. Should we avoid going to churches on Sunday? I think such would be extreme.

I would also point out that in the past, I have found some inaccuracies in some of the historical data of the some of the "orgins" arguments. I won't get into all of that here, but I fear sometimes things get imbellished in order to make them appear worse than they really were.

The origin of something is not as important as what we are doing with it today. Far and away, most people are oblivious to where their traditions come from, but they serve the Lord with a sincere heart, and God honors that.

Exactly!!

[Emily~Anne]

Things, Practices or Beliefs with Pagan Origins or aren't exclusively "Christian":

god incarnate

messiah born of a virgin

dying god

baptism

referring to god as "El" (one of the Canaanite pagan deities was called El and considered the Creator)

the english word "god" (originally used to refer to pagan gods)

god riding on the clouds (one of Baal's titles was "Rider on the Clouds")

circumcision (a procedure commonly used in pagan practices prior to God's covenant with Abraham)

embalming (which Joseph accepted in spite of it's pagan origins, see Gen. 49:29-50:3)

blowing candles out on birthday cakes (Greco-Roman paganism)

wedding rings

flowers at funerals and gravesites

modern symbols for male/female (derived from Mars/Venus)

medical symbol of a staff/snakes (staff carried by Hermes/Mercury and Aesculapius, god of medicine)

statue of liberty (symbolic of Libertas, Roman goddess of Liberty)

modern symbol for justice with blindfolded female holding scales (symbolic of Themis, Greek goddess of order, law and justice)

halloween

easter

christmas

birthday celebrations

calendars (first developed among pagans and containing names of pagan deities:

January = Janus (the Roman god of beginnings)

February = Februa (pagan festival of purification)

March = Mars (pagan god of war)

April = Aphrodite

May = (pagan goddess of Maia)

June = Juno (wife of Jupiter, pagan queen of the gods)

The days of the week also signify pagan practice/beliefs:

Sunday = pagan day of the sun

Monday = pagan day of the moon

Tuesday = pagan warrior god Teutonic

Wednesday = Wotan, another Teutonic god

Thursday = Thor (Norse thunder god)

Friday = Frigg (Norse goddess of love)

Saturday = saturn (Roman god of the harvest)

This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but gives a good example of things we all use, practice or believe in that did not have "Christian" origins. So what is a Christian to do? Do we commit idolatry when we celebrate our children's birthdays? Is God offended each time we speak the names of the months, days of the week or refer to our modern concept of time? Should we avoid going to the doctor and hospitals because they contain pagan symbols throughout their offices, documents and clothing? My question is...why should we? Why do origins dictate anything? I think this would an irrational (and unnecessary) response.

It is obvious throughout Scripture that God is not only not offended by things previously considered "pagan", He even uses (or impliments) these common practices into His covenants (i.e. circumcision and baptism). He even referred to Himself in terms previously used by pagan deities (i.e. Baal, and Canaanite god, see above). We must remember two important things:

1. God looks at the heart/intentions/motives (we see numerous times in Scripture that a "good" practice can be condemned due to wrong motives, while something commonly recognized as a "bad" practice can be acceptable because of right motives). Clearly, it is not always the practice that determines whether it is acceptable, it is most often the person's heart attitude while performing these practices.

2. God is Redeemer. Satan is not a creator, he only distorts things that God creates. So do we simply abandon everything satan distorts? Or do we seek to bring God's redemption to that area of our lives/culture? Genesis 50:20 teaches us that even things that satan intends for evil, God can use for good. This is because His inherent nature entails Redemption.

It is extremely dangerous for people to adopt this puritanical idea that we must avoid all things with pagan origins. Not only is it impossible to live this belief consistently (for one must then avoid everything on the above lists, including baptism), it also borders on Gnosticism (a heretical belief/religion which was the early church's most dangerous threat).

Paul taught in Romans 14 that it is not sinful for believers to eat foods that had previously been sacrificed to idols. He spoke of freedom and nowhere outlined anything as "off-limits" due to how something was previously used and/or distorted. If we are allowed to eat meat which had been used to honor pagan gods, why can't we celebrate a day that our God created even if some have distorted this day and use it for something else? If we do not worship another god, commit idolatry or violate specific commands of God how can it be sinful? In Acts 17, Paul even quoted pagan philosophers and used their terminology to describe the One True God (vs. 22-32). If he can quote them and use their very words to bring glory to God, doesn't this show that it's how these things are used which matters and not the things themselves?

I don't think it is wise to make a lump decisions and decide if you are going to avoid or do all things pagan in origin.

Think of it this way, put easter eggs and fertility Gods on one side of a scale, and put celebrating the ressurection of Jesus and bringing others to Christ on the other side, and the eggs and fertility Gods will go flying off from the sheer weight of the ressurection of our Savior.

Now, how about Halloween? Put the fact that babies are sacrificed and children drugged and molested in Satanic worships on this day on one side of the scale, and put kids dressing up and eating candy on the other. Those Satanic worships are a much heavier idea to contend with. Our kids can dress up any old day and eat candy any old day. It is not worth it to honor satan's day.

[Kabowd]

Emily, this is something you said in the other topic that I thought I'd respond to in here:

Your article is too vague, it does not explain how those things are pagan/occultic in origin.

That's because it isn't necessary to explain. It's vague because the point is simple:

1. Who created all things? (God, He alone is Creator of all things)

2. When God made all that is created, was it good/perfect? Or fallen/sinful? (It was good/perfect in it's original created form)

3. Who distorted/perverted what was good/perfect? (satan, through sin, perverted and tainted all of creation)

4. Who is Redeemer? (Christ, through His sacrifice, brought redemption to mankind)

5. Who brings Christ's Kingdom to earth? (the Holy Spirit, through all believers, brings Christ's redemption to this fallen world)

This is a very simplistic summary of ontology. God is the Creator, correct? Everything else (all created things) are on an entirely different ontological level. He has a different realm of "reality" all His own. It would look like this:

GOD

_____

CREATION

To have a proper Christian wordlview, which is biblically sound and intellectually consistent, you must draw the ontological line horizontially, between God and creation. Why? Because God is completely "other", He is entirely on a separate level. He is infinite, everything else is finite. He is in a class all by Himself. This is called metaphysical dualism. This is the proper way to view reality (i.e. the diagram above).

By contrast, some believers incorrectly draw the ontological line (in their minds and through their beliefs, such as this "origins" argument). They want to draw the line vertically (between different aspects of created things). Here's an example:

EARTHLY THINGS l HEAVENLY THINGS

FLESH l SPIRIT

Sometimes this breaks down into more specific categories:

SECULAR MUSIC l SPIRITUAL MUSIC

SECULAR DAYS l HOLY DAYS

SECULAR ITEMS l SPIRITUAL ITEMS

In any of these scenarios, the ontological line has been drawn improperly. This is called misplaced metaphisical dualism. And guess what...it was an originally pagan philosophy The idea that some things [parts of creation] were spiritual (i.e. acceptable) while other things [parts of creation] were unspiritual/evil (i.e. unacceptable) came from pagans (Gnostics), and much of the New Testament is refutation against their faulty beliefs. The Gnostics took elements of Christianity and mixed them with Greek philosophy and Judaism. They believed that the material world was contaminated and thus their view of creation was all twisted. Essentially, they believed a spiritual aeon fell from heaven and created the material world. But when he fell, he sprinkled the earth with bits of divinity (souls) that became entangled with matter. Since the material world was contaminated, these souls became "trapped" in these physical bodies and the goal of life is to eventually escape these traps and rejoin the high God in heavens. They didn't believe in the Old Testament God, He seemed inferior to them because He lowered Himself to interact with the material world. Long story short, the distinction was made (the ontological line) was drawn incorrectly, between different aspects of creation....rather than drawing the line properly (between God and everything else). This was just the beginning of a slippery slope of trying to define what was "good" versus what was "evil". The early church battled this distorted view all throughout the New Testament (you can read specific verses for instance in 1 Timothy 4:1-5, Colossians 1:16; 2:8, 20-23). Many of the rules and regulations the early churches struggled with discerning were derived from the Gnostics (there were "Christian Gnostics), and so Paul addressed these concerns quite a bit. This is another reason the early churches developed creeds to memorize, to state beliefs clearly and distinguish belief systems and loyalties.

What does that have to do with this topic? Fast forward a few years, and you see Christian believers still having trouble distinguishing between what is "good" and what is "evil". Beginning with the influence of the Gnostics, and adding the fact they [modern Christians] have largely misunderstood the difference between "things above" versus "earthly thing" (and the misinterpretation of "lovers of the world")...this has led us to misplaced metaphysical dualism. People want to draw an ontological distinction, where an ethical distinction is what Scripture calls for. The Bible teaches that all things were originally good, and while satan has distorted them, this does not make them inherently evil. Created things can become evil, depending on how they are used. This is the ethical distinction. It should never be placed on a different realm of reality, it can't be. I can take a piece of metal, melt it and make it into a cross and use it when I pray or as a reminder. Or I can take the same metal, melt it into a sword and use it to kill someone. Has the ontology changed? Of course not. The difference is morally/ethically how it is used. Understand?

[Kabowd]

I don't think it is wise to make a lump decisions and decide if you are going to avoid or do all things pagan in origin.

I think I just addressed this pretty thoroughly above. But yes, I lumped them all together because they are ontologically the same.

Think of it this way, put easter eggs and fertility Gods on one side of a scale, and put celebrating the ressurection of Jesus and bringing others to Christ on the other side, and the eggs and fertility Gods will go flying off from the sheer weight of the ressurection of our Savior.

Now, how about Halloween? Put the fact that babies are sacrificed and children drugged and molested in Satanic worships on this day on one side of the scale, and put kids dressing up and eating candy on the other. Those Satanic worships are a much heavier idea to contend with. Our kids can dress up any old day and eat candy any old day. It is not worth it to honor satan's day.

If I put an outfit on and give candy to sick kids in the hospital in order to be a blessing and honor God, how is that evil? If I'm not worshipping satan, where is the sin?

[Kabowd]

No response?

[Emily~Anne]

aren't exclusively "Christian": quoted from your original post, key words-"aren't EXCLUSIVELY" Please explain to me how Halloween is a Christian holiday at all? It is a day that is a gift from God just like any other day, and giving this day special recognition because it is a Satanic holiday does not honor God in any way.

Celebrating the birth of our Savior? Yes honors God.

Celebrating the resurrection of our Savior? Yes, honors God.

Singing hymns of praise with the word God and telling others about our wonderful God? Yes honors God.

Observing the day of Sabbath which happens to be the "pagan day of the sun"? Yes, honors God.

Teaching our children about the 6 days of creation-Monday to Saturday? Yes, honors God.

Being baptised with the Holy Spirit? Yes, honors God

Giving special recognition to a day that honors Satan alone and mimicing traditions set by evil worshippers, not honoring to God at all.

Halloween is EXCLUSIVELY pagan and not Christian at all in any way shape or form, and we decieve ourselves if we think by giving this day special recognition and celebrating it in an "innocent way" honors God.

It is still Halloween no matter how much we clean it up.