Pagan Origins and Christianity

[Emily~Anne]

As fsr as halloween:

The day itself is from God. Halloween though is not from God. Halloween and God, do not mix, as light and darkness have nothing to do with each other. Because it so so easy to honor the day as any other day without honoring Halloween, I don't think this is the best example of "metaphysical dualism" I don't believe a day created by God and Halloween have to go hand in hand, unless if you choose to honor both. (I'll refrain from telling you my honest opinion on that ) I am not saying we should stay in bed all day and hide, I just feel it is wrong to honor Satan's day in God's name.

October 31st is from God. Halloween is from Satan. It is possible to honor the day without the holiday. They are seperatable.

Before I say anything further, lets assume everything you say above is true. What is a more profitable response from a believer? Leaving this day, this ground which once belonged to God to Satan...or taking it back somehow by either giving the day a new meaning/changing the meanings of current traditions? I say the second. And apparently some in Christian history agreed with me.

Halloween is the Christian name for a Christian day started by the Roman Catholic Church. It is not the same as Samhain or Devils night any more than any of these are the same thing as Reformation Day. They are all on the same day, but they are NOT the same holiday.

Samhain is a pagan holiday, definately. NO Christian I know of is going out to pagan bonfires and making offerings to pagan gods/goddesses, practicing divination, conjuring of spirits and communication with anything otherworldly. Which is what the pagans are doing to celebrate samhain. Therefore, Christians are not celebrating Samhain by keeping Halloween.

Hallowe'en is the name which is the shortened version of All Hallows Eve which was the Eve before All Hallows Mass/All Saints Day (Nov 1). In the earlier times, before the reformation, the evening before a holiday was just as sacred as the holiday itself. The church had this day to commemorate the people who had gone on before in the faith. Sure they moved the day (from sometime in the spring) to coincide with Samhain and like festivals. Big fat hairy deal.

In the bible God doesn't just tell us not to do what pagans do. You see, particularly in the OT, whenever the pagans had their holidays you will find festivals which GOD created. IOW, he was giving the believers a reason to celebrate right about the same time pagans were having their fun.

Therefore taking any day which pagans celebrate in one fashion or another and getting together as Christians and celebrating something worthy of God (church history, what REALLY happens after death, the harvest, or just because you feel like getting together and fellowshipping) is not just NOT a SIN, but a following of BIBLICAL example. No it's not commanded in the NT, however it's not CONDEMNED either.

What the prereformation church did was based on Biblical precedent and was a good thing to do. The fact that the Christians took some of the pagan symbolism into the day is not a big deal. It has happened at Christmas, it has happened on Resurrection day...Originally the symbolism wasn't just borrowed it was coopted, ie given a different meaning. Samhain was about death and the afterlife, All Saints/Hallowe'en was about the REAL truth about death and the afterlife.

Therefore there is absolutely NOTHING sinful about a Christian celebrating HALLOWEEN. Just as long as they don't celebrate SAMHAIN.

Or imitate satanic rituals such as jack-o-lanterns, trick or treating, etc. (For those unaware, trick or treating actually ORIGINATES from druids dressing up as evil spirits and going to door asking for a treat to contribute to their spells, or they would play a trick, which was often to kill them or castrate them.

[Kabowd]

Things, Practices or Beliefs with Pagan Origins or aren't exclusively "Christian":

god incarnate

messiah born of a virgin

dying god

baptism

referring to god as "El" (one of the Canaanite pagan deities was called El and considered the Creator)

the english word "god" (originally used to refer to pagan gods)

god riding on the clouds (one of Baal's titles was "Rider on the Clouds")

circumcision (a procedure commonly used in pagan practices prior to God's covenant with Abraham)

embalming (which Joseph accepted in spite of it's pagan origins, see Gen. 49:29-50:3)

blowing candles out on birthday cakes (Greco-Roman paganism)

wedding rings

flowers at funerals and gravesites

modern symbols for male/female (derived from Mars/Venus)

medical symbol of a staff/snakes (staff carried by Hermes/Mercury and Aesculapius, god of medicine)

statue of liberty (symbolic of Libertas, Roman goddess of Liberty)

modern symbol for justice with blindfolded female holding scales (symbolic of Themis, Greek goddess of order, law and justice)

halloween

easter

christmas

birthday celebrations

calendars (first developed among pagans and containing names of pagan deities:

January = Janus (the Roman god of beginnings)

February = Februa (pagan festival of purification)

March = Mars (pagan god of war)

April = Aphrodite

May = (pagan goddess of Maia)

June = Juno (wife of Jupiter, pagan queen of the gods)

The days of the week also signify pagan practice/beliefs:

Sunday = pagan day of the sun

Monday = pagan day of the moon

Tuesday = pagan warrior god Teutonic

Wednesday = Wotan, another Teutonic god

Thursday = Thor (Norse thunder god)

Friday = Frigg (Norse goddess of love)

Saturday = saturn (Roman god of the harvest)

This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but gives a good example of things we all use, practice or believe in that did not have "Christian" origins. So what is a Christian to do? Do we commit idolatry when we celebrate our children's birthdays? Is God offended each time we speak the names of the months, days of the week or refer to our modern concept of time? Should we avoid going to the doctor and hospitals because they contain pagan symbols throughout their offices, documents and clothing? My question is...why should we? Why do origins dictate anything? I think this would an irrational (and unnecessary) response.

It is obvious throughout Scripture that God is not only not offended by things previously considered "pagan", He even uses (or impliments) these common practices into His covenants (i.e. circumcision and baptism). He even referred to Himself in terms previously used by pagan deities (i.e. Baal, and Canaanite god, see above). We must remember two important things:

1. God looks at the heart/intentions/motives (we see numerous times in Scripture that a "good" practice can be condemned due to wrong motives, while something commonly recognized as a "bad" practice can be acceptable because of right motives). Clearly, it is not always the practice that determines whether it is acceptable, it is most often the person's heart attitude while performing these practices.

2. God is Redeemer. Satan is not a creator, he only distorts things that God creates. So do we simply abandon everything satan distorts? Or do we seek to bring God's redemption to that area of our lives/culture? Genesis 50:20 teaches us that even things that satan intends for evil, God can use for good. This is because His inherent nature entails Redemption.

It is extremely dangerous for people to adopt this puritanical idea that we must avoid all things with pagan origins. Not only is it impossible to live this belief consistently (for one must then avoid everything on the above lists, including baptism), it also borders on Gnosticism (a heretical belief/religion which was the early church's most dangerous threat).

Paul taught in Romans 14 that it is not sinful for believers to eat foods that had previously been sacrificed to idols. He spoke of freedom and nowhere outlined anything as "off-limits" due to how something was previously used and/or distorted. If we are allowed to eat meat which had been used to honor pagan gods, why can't we celebrate a day that our God created even if some have distorted this day and use it for something else? If we do not worship another god, commit idolatry or violate specific commands of God how can it be sinful? In Acts 17, Paul even quoted pagan philosophers and used their terminology to describe the One True God (vs. 22-32). If he can quote them and use their very words to bring glory to God, doesn't this show that it's how these things are used which matters and not the things themselves?

Emily, this is something you said in the other topic that I thought I'd respond to in here:

Your article is too vague, it does not explain how those things are pagan/occultic in origin.

That's because it isn't necessary to explain. It's vague because the point is simple:

1. Who created all things? (God, He alone is Creator of all things)

2. When God made all that is created, was it good/perfect? Or fallen/sinful? (It was good/perfect in it's original created form)

3. Who distorted/perverted what was good/perfect? (satan, through sin, perverted and tainted all of creation)

4. Who is Redeemer? (Christ, through His sacrifice, brought redemption to mankind)

5. Who brings Christ's Kingdom to earth? (the Holy Spirit, through all believers, brings Christ's redemption to this fallen world)

This is a very simplistic summary of ontology. God is the Creator, correct? Everything else (all created things) are on an entirely different ontological level. He has a different realm of "reality" all His own. It would look like this:

GOD

_____

CREATION

To have a proper Christian wordlview, which is biblically sound and intellectually consistent, you must draw the ontological line horizontially, between God and creation. Why? Because God is completely "other", He is entirely on a separate level. He is infinite, everything else is finite. He is in a class all by Himself. This is called metaphysical dualism. This is the proper way to view reality (i.e. the diagram above).

By contrast, some believers incorrectly draw the ontological line (in their minds and through their beliefs, such as this "origins" argument). They want to draw the line vertically (between different aspects of created things). Here's an example:

EARTHLY THINGS l HEAVENLY THINGS

FLESH l SPIRIT

Sometimes this breaks down into more specific categories:

SECULAR MUSIC l SPIRITUAL MUSIC

SECULAR DAYS l HOLY DAYS

SECULAR ITEMS l SPIRITUAL ITEMS

In any of these scenarios, the ontological line has been drawn improperly. This is called misplaced metaphisical dualism. And guess what...it was an originally pagan philosophy The idea that some things [parts of creation] were spiritual (i.e. acceptable) while other things [parts of creation] were unspiritual/evil (i.e. unacceptable) came from pagans (Gnostics), and much of the New Testament is refutation against their faulty beliefs. The Gnostics took elements of Christianity and mixed them with Greek philosophy and Judaism. They believed that the material world was contaminated and thus their view of creation was all twisted. Essentially, they believed a spiritual aeon fell from heaven and created the material world. But when he fell, he sprinkled the earth with bits of divinity (souls) that became entangled with matter. Since the material world was contaminated, these souls became "trapped" in these physical bodies and the goal of life is to eventually escape these traps and rejoin the high God in heavens. They didn't believe in the Old Testament God, He seemed inferior to them because He lowered Himself to interact with the material world. Long story short, the distinction was made (the ontological line) was drawn incorrectly, between different aspects of creation....rather than drawing the line properly (between God and everything else). This was just the beginning of a slippery slope of trying to define what was "good" versus what was "evil". The early church battled this distorted view all throughout the New Testament (you can read specific verses for instance in 1 Timothy 4:1-5, Colossians 1:16; 2:8, 20-23). Many of the rules and regulations the early churches struggled with discerning were derived from the Gnostics (there were "Christian Gnostics), and so Paul addressed these concerns quite a bit. This is another reason the early churches developed creeds to memorize, to state beliefs clearly and distinguish belief systems and loyalties.

What does that have to do with this topic? Fast forward a few years, and you see Christian believers still having trouble distinguishing between what is "good" and what is "evil". Beginning with the influence of the Gnostics, and adding the fact they [modern Christians] have largely misunderstood the difference between "things above" versus "earthly thing" (and the misinterpretation of "lovers of the world")...this has led us to misplaced metaphysical dualism. People want to draw an ontological distinction, where an ethical distinction is what Scripture calls for. The Bible teaches that all things were originally good, and while satan has distorted them, this does not make them inherently evil. Created things can become evil, depending on how they are used. This is the ethical distinction. It should never be placed on a different realm of reality, it can't be. I can take a piece of metal, melt it and make it into a cross and use it when I pray or as a reminder. Or I can take the same metal, melt it into a sword and use it to kill someone. Has the ontology changed? Of course not. The difference is morally/ethically how it is used. Understand?

Apparently it's been forgotten what this topic is about.

[LadyRaven]

As fsr as halloween:

The day itself is from God. Halloween though is not from God. Halloween and God, do not mix, as light and darkness have nothing to do with each other. Because it so so easy to honor the day as any other day without honoring Halloween, I don't think this is the best example of "metaphysical dualism" I don't believe a day created by God and Halloween have to go hand in hand, unless if you choose to honor both. (I'll refrain from telling you my honest opinion on that ) I am not saying we should stay in bed all day and hide, I just feel it is wrong to honor Satan's day in God's name.

October 31st is from God. Halloween is from Satan. It is possible to honor the day without the holiday. They are seperatable.

Before I say anything further, lets assume everything you say above is true. What is a more profitable response from a believer? Leaving this day, this ground which once belonged to God to Satan...or taking it back somehow by either giving the day a new meaning/changing the meanings of current traditions? I say the second. And apparently some in Christian history agreed with me.

Halloween is the Christian name for a Christian day started by the Roman Catholic Church. It is not the same as Samhain or Devils night any more than any of these are the same thing as Reformation Day. They are all on the same day, but they are NOT the same holiday.

Samhain is a pagan holiday, definately. NO Christian I know of is going out to pagan bonfires and making offerings to pagan gods/goddesses, practicing divination, conjuring of spirits and communication with anything otherworldly. Which is what the pagans are doing to celebrate samhain. Therefore, Christians are not celebrating Samhain by keeping Halloween.

Hallowe'en is the name which is the shortened version of All Hallows Eve which was the Eve before All Hallows Mass/All Saints Day (Nov 1). In the earlier times, before the reformation, the evening before a holiday was just as sacred as the holiday itself. The church had this day to commemorate the people who had gone on before in the faith. Sure they moved the day (from sometime in the spring) to coincide with Samhain and like festivals. Big fat hairy deal.

In the bible God doesn't just tell us not to do what pagans do. You see, particularly in the OT, whenever the pagans had their holidays you will find festivals which GOD created. IOW, he was giving the believers a reason to celebrate right about the same time pagans were having their fun.

Therefore taking any day which pagans celebrate in one fashion or another and getting together as Christians and celebrating something worthy of God (church history, what REALLY happens after death, the harvest, or just because you feel like getting together and fellowshipping) is not just NOT a SIN, but a following of BIBLICAL example. No it's not commanded in the NT, however it's not CONDEMNED either.

What the prereformation church did was based on Biblical precedent and was a good thing to do. The fact that the Christians took some of the pagan symbolism into the day is not a big deal. It has happened at Christmas, it has happened on Resurrection day...Originally the symbolism wasn't just borrowed it was coopted, ie given a different meaning. Samhain was about death and the afterlife, All Saints/Hallowe'en was about the REAL truth about death and the afterlife.

Therefore there is absolutely NOTHING sinful about a Christian celebrating HALLOWEEN. Just as long as they don't celebrate SAMHAIN.

Or imitate satanic rituals such as jack-o-lanterns, trick or treating, etc. (For those unaware, trick or treating actually ORIGINATES from druids dressing up as evil spirits and going to door asking for a treat to contribute to their spells, or they would play a trick, which was often to kill them or castrate them.

Trick or treating did not originate with the druids, that is one of those lies perpetrated by people who have no idea of what the truth is, like Jack Chick.

Begging for candy originated out of the Midieval custom of "souling" which is where on All Souls/Saints children would go door to door asking for "soul cakes" and if they received one they would say a prayer for the dead. The feast of St Columba (Collumcille) was also accompanied by children begging for foodstuff. These were, actually, Catholic customs, not pagan ones.

Linking this to the mischief came in the US, by marrying the practice of "Mumming" where people would be paid in food for acts of foolishness while in disguise to it. By the time this was done, Mumming had lost any pagan meaning it may have had (and I'm not sure mumming was pagan to begin with for reasons you will see below) and was a part of the various "fools day" festivals (Upside down days, where lords would serve the vassals and that sort of thing)...which were in reality an attempt to teach a biblical truth (the last shall be first).

That and "Mischeif night" which did take place on 31 Oct. Mischief night may have had loose ties to paganism, or at least superstitions of early Christians, because they believed that various spirits "Might" play tricks on them that night, even though they were Christians. The practice of trick or treat was an effort in the US to control mischief making and was not around until the 20th century.

pagans don't and never did celebrate samhain by going door to door asking for candy while dressed like mermaids and did not do the things you say they did then, much less do them now. Costumed begging did not exist in druid tradition in any historical source before the 17th century, which is a little late to be credible since the pure druidic tradition had passed by then.

Costumed processions and begging for food door to door did exist in Christian times in Europe, and not just at all Hallows, but at Christmas, and during the various harvest festivals (for example there is no national "thanksgiving day" in England, each parish decides what fall sunday will be the celebration for the harvest and they have it then...When I lived in Threxton I want to three thanksgiving services in a row because our priest was shared by several churches and we followed him around each of these ten throughout the year...You couldn't miss a week or you had to call to find out which church was having services...)

Jack O Lanterns were used on Samhain, and on all the days of the winter and throughout the year when light was needed. They were not pumpkins, but turnips and other hollowed veggies and were used as a way to deal with the problem of not being able to afford metal. They make nice votives. That's it. Nothing evil about votives.

As I said, there is nothing evil about a Christian Celebrating Halloween. They are NOT celebrating Samhain, which is the whole point here. Perhaps before you go wagging your finger in the faces of people who have never even seen a pagan worship item much less used one, you should do some actual, credible historical research.

[Kabowd]

Well the point is, origins are irrelevant. If all people are going to do is ignore the historical, scriptural and philosophical evidence brought forth in this topic to continue to assert things which have already been proven inaccurate, then it's pointless to try and have an intelligent discussion on the matter.

[billie]

Wow, thanks, LadyRaven. I'm still not celebrating Halloween, but I'm certainly much more enlightened about it than I was before. What I've been told about it isn't at all accurate.

[Kabowd]

Wow, thanks, LadyRaven. I'm still not celebrating Halloween, but I'm certainly much more enlightened about it than I was before. What I've been told about it isn't at all accurate.

Even though we differ in how we approach October 31st, I sincerely do appreciate your willingness to listen to the truth. I think it's awesome.

[Emily~Anne]

as far as Halloween which is on your list Kabowd,

Here's a quote from http://www.nisbett.com/holidays/halloween_...perspective.htm -- there are a lot of sites to find information on Halloween and how it is celebrated by satanists NOW.

"But while children and adults innocently imitate ancient Celtic customs, darker practices persist. Witches and Satanists still consider Halloween to be one of the strongest times during the year to cast a spell. On Halloween most witchcraft practitioners participate in a ritual called "drawing down the moon." In this the chief witch of the coven (group of witches) becomes, they believe, a channel for the moon goddess. During this ritual the participants, both male and female, are 'sky-clad" -- that is , naked. Stonehenge, the mysterious ancient stone formation in England, is often the site for bizarre gatherings of occultists, some of who believe they are modern-day Druids. (Many people believe that Stonehenge was a Druid religious site.) And evidence persists that some Satanist and voodoo groups offer sacrifices usually animals, but, possibly, human babies."

Since this is posted in Hot Topics, I will say I just wonder why a Christian would want to celebrate a pagan holiday that satanists love today? A holiday that glorifies the devil with its black cats, bats, witches, ghosts, goblins, monsters, and more?

[Kabowd]

Yes, origins matter.

Prove it scripturally.

[Kabowd]

as far as Halloween which is on your list Kabowd,

Here's a quote from http://www.nisbett.com/holidays/halloween_...perspective.htm -- there are a lot of sites to find information on Halloween and how it is celebrated by satanists NOW.

"But while children and adults innocently imitate ancient Celtic customs, darker practices persist. Witches and Satanists still consider Halloween to be one of the strongest times during the year to cast a spell. On Halloween most witchcraft practitioners participate in a ritual called "drawing down the moon." In this the chief witch of the coven (group of witches) becomes, they believe, a channel for the moon goddess. During this ritual the participants, both male and female, are 'sky-clad" -- that is , naked. Stonehenge, the mysterious ancient stone formation in England, is often the site for bizarre gatherings of occultists, some of who believe they are modern-day Druids. (Many people believe that Stonehenge was a Druid religious site.) And evidence persists that some Satanist and voodoo groups offer sacrifices usually animals, but, possibly, human babies."

Since this is posted in Hot Topics, I will say I just wonder why a Christian would want to celebrate a pagan holiday that satanists love today? A holiday that glorifies the devil with its black cats, bats, witches, ghosts, goblins, monsters, and more?

Unless you're going to respond to the evidence brought forth and the questions posed to you, the rest of us are going to have to determine that you are unwilling to hear the truth and do not respect anything we say enough to respond directly. You continue to imply that nearly anything we do on October 31st is "honoring satan" and have yet to prove this so with any evidence whatsoever (apart from your foster mom's testimony and various links to sites that have been shown to be inaccurate). Here are some key points that you've ignored:

Do we commit idolatry when we celebrate our children's birthdays? Is God offended each time we speak the names of the months, days of the week or refer to our modern concept of time? Should we avoid going to the doctor and hospitals because they contain pagan symbols throughout their offices, documents and clothing?

It is obvious throughout Scripture that God is not only not offended by things previously considered "pagan", He even uses (or impliments) these common practices into His covenants (i.e. circumcision and baptism). He even referred to Himself in terms previously used by pagan deities (i.e. Baal, and Canaanite god, see above). We must remember two important things:

1. God looks at the heart/intentions/motives (we see numerous times in Scripture that a "good" practice can be condemned due to wrong motives, while something commonly recognized as a "bad" practice can be acceptable because of right motives). Clearly, it is not always the practice that determines whether it is acceptable, it is most often the person's heart attitude while performing these practices.

2. God is Redeemer. Satan is not a creator, he only distorts things that God creates. So do we simply abandon everything satan distorts? Or do we seek to bring God's redemption to that area of our lives/culture? Genesis 50:20 teaches us that even things that satan intends for evil, God can use for good. This is because His inherent nature entails Redemption.

Paul taught in Romans 14 that it is not sinful for believers to eat foods that had previously been sacrificed to idols. He spoke of freedom and nowhere outlined anything as "off-limits" due to how something was previously used and/or distorted. If we are allowed to eat meat which had been used to honor pagan gods, why can't we celebrate a day that our God created even if some have distorted this day and use it for something else? If we do not worship another god, commit idolatry or violate specific commands of God how can it be sinful? In Acts 17, Paul even quoted pagan philosophers and used their terminology to describe the One True God (vs. 22-32). If he can quote them and use their very words to bring glory to God, doesn't this show that it's how these things are used which matters and not the things themselves?

[LadyRaven]

Well the point is, origins are irrelevant. If all people are going to do is ignore the historical, scriptural and philosophical evidence brought forth in this topic to continue to assert things which have already been proven inaccurate, then it's pointless to try and have an intelligent discussion on the matter.

To a point Of course there are always people reading who never post.

Origins matter if the thing we discuss still retains it's meaning or use. There is nothing a Christian can do with a Ouijia board. It's origins are pagan and well, it still is, and as far as I can see can have no other use other than a museum display.

They don't matter if the meaning or use is either no longer there or no longer part of the original. If they no longer have their meaning then they are just objects or whatever. I scent my house with inscense, it no longer means anything spiritual to me, therefore it's not. A pentagram has various meanings, some of them Christian, so I'd remain open until I found out what the person using or wearing it meant by wearing it.