Biblical Hermeneutics

[jackie d]

The way I see it this is really the wrong question.

I heard from a teacher that the only bad/wrong question is the the question that goes unasked..smiles

thanks for your detailed response, worked a graveyard shift and off to bed..will look at this more closely after I have had some sleep...blessings

[LadyRaven]

So what you are saying basically is that between the bible and the Holy Spirit I am unable to get the proper interpretation without hermeneutics?

You already have hermeneutics. It's just a matter of how well they work. Some elements of hermeneutics work well in the hands of the novice and others require more work.

Not everything you think you get from inspiration is from God. I see it all the time, two people say "The holy spirit revealed this to me..." and what they say are two different things. At least one of them and possibly both of them are wrong. God does not tell people two different things...God is not the author of confusion. I had a very wise man tell me..When you hear the voice of inspiration, it could be from four sources...It could be from God, it could come from hell, it could come from yourself, it could come from the remnants of the opinions of those you admire...You have to have a way of discerning that what you feel in your heart and think is inspired actually came from the correct source.

The bible is easy enough, on the important points, for a child to understand it...and yet full of enough deep theological thoughts to keep people with pHD's entertained for several lifetimes. You don't need complicated hermaneutics to understand the stuff necessary to get saved, as the Holy Spirit spoke to your spirit and brought you to faith as a spiritual infant. However the bible's deep enough to allow you to grow regardless of how intensely and carefully you study it....and some people do make a lifes work out of studying nothing BUT scripture.

Most of us are somewhere in between and as we grow we learn to use the tools that help us study more deeply and accurately, just as as a child grows he or she learns to use the tools necessary to function in his or her world. Eventually we reach a point at which, if we don't learn the proper way to interpret scripture we will either stagnate or be lead astray by someone who knows how to twist it....

[Guest shiloh357]

So what you are saying basically is that between the bible and the Holy Spirit I am unable to get the proper interpretation without hermeneutics?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that we need hermeneutics to demonstrate why our beliefs are more valid than those of heretics and cults that twist the Bible to suit their own doctrines. How do we demonstrate that our view of the Bible is the more credible one? It is not a matter of saying that unless you are professional at hermeneutics, you cannot know the Bible. Rather the point is that a good working knowledge of hermeneutics if they were taught in the church, and removed from the ivory towers would help to produce more mature believers and stave off conversion into cults and other false doctrines.

Let me ask you something. The preacher I mentioned in my last post? How would you respond to his assertion that because Jesus was asleep in the fishing boat, when the storm arose, that it proves he was not God? You would take Him to passages that demonstrate the Deity of Jesus, would you not? What if he challenges the way you interpret those verses (that has happened on this very board, by the way; we have had people on here who deny the deity of Jesus)?What would you respond with if he said to you that the Holy Spirit has told him that the Deity of Jesus is not biblical and that we are the ones twisting the Bible? How would you respond if ANY of your beliefs were challenged as unbiblical? Wouldn't you at least try to demonstrate that they were?

So if you hold to something you feel is biblical solely on the grounds that you are convinced the Holy Spirit showed it to you, and someone else says you are wrong, and they hold to the opposite view, and are just as determined to believe that it is they, and NOT you, that is listening to the Holy Spirit, you arrive at an impasse, do you not? Which one of you is right? The average person would might just shrug their shoulders and say, believe what you want, and walk away. But what if it is your children, or another loved one that you see or perceive as being deceived, perhaps being led into something you know is just flat wrong? It no longer becomes a case of a person believing what they want to believe in the privacy of their home or house of worship. What happens now that someone you care about might be led into error of a cult or something?

How do you convince your loved one, that they are being deceived? How do you demonstrate to them that your way of understanding the Bible, is more valid than the cult or false teaching they are being led into? Wouldn't you at least try to convince them, as a supplemental action in addition to praying for them and doing spiritual warfare?

My point is that EVERYONE has an interpretative method. Everyone uses a kind of hermeneutics in some fashion. We use it everytime we read the Bible, or any other book, for that matter. Every single one of us who has been a Christian for any period of time, cannot deny that we have been influenced by the teachers and pastors we have sat under. If you are Pentacostal, then you are going to see the Bible from that frame of reference. The same goes for Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. None of can say that what we believe was simply dropped into us by the Holy Spirit without any human agency, whatsoever. All of us, who are honest, must admit that we have been shaped and taught to some degree, to approach the Bible from a particular paradigm. All of us have a paradigm, and we use it so often we are almost not even conscious we have it. A paradigm, as you know, is our frame of reference, it is how we perceive our environment, and the world. It is why we honestly think that the way we view the world, politics, religion, etc. is the way things really are, and if people don't see it the way we do, they are are not looking at reality. This is why two people can approach the same set of Scriptures, and walk away with two completely different understandings. It is not because the Scriptures they are examining are different, but because the perspectives they bring to the Scriptures, determine the understanding they will take away from them. A standardized set of rules of literary analysis helps to approach the Bible in a way that lets it speak for itself, and prevents people from just taking anything they want out of it and misusing the Bible to suit some off the wall idea they have. It is not antagonistic at all to the Holy Spirit.

Anybody can say "My interpretation is right and you cannot tell me I am wrong because the Holy Spirit told me..." I cannot begin enumerate the number of people who jumped on this board and have tried to teach some of the most absurd and outrageous things. We had a guy on here that was convinced that the Holy Spirit told him that he was the modern incarnation of the Prophet Elijah. He was from Tennessee, and called himself "The Tennessee Elijah." I saw a post once where a guy was claiming to be speaking by the Holy Spirit and was counseling a woman to divorce her husband.

I realize that Jesus' disciples were unlearned and that has been thrown at me a lot. However the one man who is credited with writing the single most books of the Bible is the Apostle Paul. He was a very educated, and diligent man. He was a both a man of the Spirit, AND a man of study.

The principles of hermeneutics in and of themselves do not produce men who have parchment without power. That is the fault of the individual, and it reveals a flaw in their walk with the Lord. It is not a reflection on hermeneutics. I have seen a lot of people who's "wood is wet" when it comes to things of God, and they were not scholars. Yet, we have many man who have devoted themselves to study, and have produced resources that most of us use everyday whether it is a concordance, a dictionary, a study Bible, a book on how to witness to Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses, and so forth. I find it very peculiar that people like you try to paint learning an education as somehow being antagonistic to the Holy Spirit yet you will read a Bible in your own language created by men you evidently think are not spiritual. You would not have a Bible if there were not men anointed by God to study, and learn the biblical languages, and translate the Bible in your own language. God has used men of great academic stature for his purposes. I would think that as Christians we would be interested in developing our whole selves for God's service in spirit, mind and body. I have seen both extremes. I have seen those who allow themselves to fall into pride because of their learning, and I have seen those who can whoop it up at church, but cannot even count change, correctly. We should not let anything suffer. We should be trying at least in some way to better ourselves in all areas in order to be to be effective witnesses for Christ. God placed teachers in the Body of Christ according to Ephesians 4:11-13. If God did not want us to learn from each other, then would all be on our little island somewhere.

Oh, and one other thing: This is for all readers. Everybody makes fun of the guys who go to seminary, but let me tell you all something. Those guys go to seminary, and they and their wives are often working a job apiece and raising children. In many cases they are also preaching from church to church on Sundays in addtion to their jobs and their studies and their families. It takes discipline to hold that kind of schedule for two or three years. But you know what??? That tells you about their character. Before you run off calling seminary "cemetary," please note: The kind of discipline these men exhibit in their lives as students and has parents, is usually indicative of the kind of discipline, commitment, work ethic, diligence and integrity with which they will approach their duties once they get on the mission field, or once they become pastors. Seminary is a good proving ground for demonstrating the level conviction and passion a future pastor will have.

[LadyRaven]

I realize that Jesus' disciples were unlearned and that has been thrown at me a lot. However the one man who is credited with writing the single most books of the Bible is the Apostle Paul. He was a very educated, and diligent man. He was a both a man of the Spirit, AND a man of study.

I have also read the amount of studying of the OT the average Jewish male in the time of the apostles had vs what most of us have. It was all part of a covenant class I took years ago and I no longer have my notes here, they are in storage. The point was that we cheated our kids by adding adolescence and then making our school system the way it is...anyway, by our own standards, it would seem like these guys might have been more learned in scripture than most of us are. It's frightening that we have so little biblical education compared to people we don't consider all that advanced. I'd have to research again the whole thing but there was something along the line of by the time the average jewish male was ten he was almost completely literate and had memorised large portions of scripture...?

Then, while scripture does not say so, you read the scriptures and see the heavy duty analysis and reference to OT truth in the NT, it is obvious that even if they were not learned when they started, by the time they started writing they had definately improved their education. Which means for us that no matter where we are, we can always improve...

[Guest Cephas]

I don't know, maybe I'm being naive here, but somehow I guess I'm seeing 'special knowledge' being discussed here. I can see that having some proper knowledge of the ancient languages might help in your understanding, but it seems to me that one can find saving knowledge from any decent translation of the Bible without tons of extra resources. A man (or woman) stranded on a desert island, with ONE Bible (ANY TRANSLATION, even a bad one) and sufficient understanding of the written language that translation is in, is more than able to be lead by the Holy Spirit to find all the truth he needs to be Saved. The 'special knowledge' comes into importance to the average Christian in what way?

I'm not meaning to be offensive in any way, just curious why all this preoccupation with Hermetics as related to concordances and dictionaries, etc. True enough, I can see how knowing how the original language worked has importance in knowing how the words should be applied (and knowing the original audience, cultural situations, etc can help understand the original meaning), but the necessary meanings are available to any one able to read it. Or so I would think. Gnosticism (again Special Knowledge, mayhaps of a different sort) starts to come to mind as I read through your posts.

Please pardon my ignorance

[jackie d]

I don't know, maybe I'm being naive here, but somehow I guess I'm seeing 'special knowledge' being discussed here. I can see that having some proper knowledge of the ancient languages might help in your understanding, but it seems to me that one can find saving knowledge from any decent translation of the Bible without tons of extra resources. A man (or woman) stranded on a desert island, with ONE Bible (ANY TRANSLATION, even a bad one) and sufficient understanding of the written language that translation is in, is more than able to be lead by the Holy Spirit to find all the truth he needs to be Saved. The 'special knowledge' comes into importance to the average Christian in what way?

I'm not meaning to be offensive in any way, just curious why all this preoccupation with Hermetics as related to concordances and dictionaries, etc. True enough, I can see how knowing how the original language worked has importance in knowing how the words should be applied (and knowing the original audience, cultural situations, etc can help understand the original meaning), but the necessary meanings are available to any one able to read it. Or so I would think. Gnosticism (again Special Knowledge, mayhaps of a different sort) starts to come to mind as I read through your posts.

Please pardon my ignorance

this is what I'm talkin about Cephas..it seems to me that learning the scripture is a pretty simple thing that some seem to think needs to become complicated..perhaps there are some things in the bible that it would be helpful to me to have another learning tool but a simple concordance works once in a while.

I get the feeling that a lot more emphasis is put on this than needs to be..I had no clue that using a concordance or dictionary was a practice of hermeneutics. If and when there comes a time that I am in need of studying in this manner I will know where to go to find out how to do it..don't get me wrong I'm not down on anybody..it just seems that more emphasis is being put on this than real spiritual knowledge that is gained through simply reading the scriptures..but maybe I'm wrong..never practiced studying the bible using hermeneutics.

blessings

Edited October 31, 2006 by jackie d

[LadyRaven]

I don't know, maybe I'm being naive here, but somehow I guess I'm seeing 'special knowledge' being discussed here. I can see that having some proper knowledge of the ancient languages might help in your understanding, but it seems to me that one can find saving knowledge from any decent translation of the Bible without tons of extra resources. A man (or woman) stranded on a desert island, with ONE Bible (ANY TRANSLATION, even a bad one) and sufficient understanding of the written language that translation is in, is more than able to be lead by the Holy Spirit to find all the truth he needs to be Saved. The 'special knowledge' comes into importance to the average Christian in what way?

I'm not meaning to be offensive in any way, just curious why all this preoccupation with Hermetics as related to concordances and dictionaries, etc. True enough, I can see how knowing how the original language worked has importance in knowing how the words should be applied (and knowing the original audience, cultural situations, etc can help understand the original meaning), but the necessary meanings are available to any one able to read it. Or so I would think. Gnosticism (again Special Knowledge, mayhaps of a different sort) starts to come to mind as I read through your posts.

Please pardon my ignorance

Gnosticism is more concerned with experience and having "personal/secret" knowledge," as opposed to being able to place an idea inside a systematic theology to see if it's correct or knowing whether the original word was in the past or present or if it's a verb or noun form. Gnosticism is more consistent with the idea that "God revealed this to me" without then checking to make sure that revelation is consistent with good theology. It isn't about having more scholarly knowledge. Gnosticism is about having more experiental knowledge.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't know, maybe I'm being naive here, but somehow I guess I'm seeing 'special knowledge' being discussed here. I can see that having some proper knowledge of the ancient languages might help in your understanding, but it seems to me that one can find saving knowledge from any decent translation of the Bible without tons of extra resources. A man (or woman) stranded on a desert island, with ONE Bible (ANY TRANSLATION, even a bad one) and sufficient understanding of the written language that translation is in, is more than able to be lead by the Holy Spirit to find all the truth he needs to be Saved. The 'special knowledge' comes into importance to the average Christian in what way?

I'm not meaning to be offensive in any way, just curious why all this preoccupation with Hermetics as related to concordances and dictionaries, etc. True enough, I can see how knowing how the original language worked has importance in knowing how the words should be applied (and knowing the original audience, cultural situations, etc can help understand the original meaning), but the necessary meanings are available to any one able to read it. Or so I would think. Gnosticism (again Special Knowledge, mayhaps of a different sort) starts to come to mind as I read through your posts.

Please pardon my ignorance

this is what I'm talkin about Cephas..it seems to me that learning the scripture is a pretty simple thing that some seem to think needs to become complicated..perhaps there are some things in the bible that it would be helpful to me to have another learning tool but a simple concordance works once in a while.

I get the feeling that a lot more emphasis is put on this than needs to be..I had no clue that using a concordance or dictionary was a practice of hermeneutics. If and when there comes a time that I am in need of studying in this manner I will know where to go to find out how to do it..don't get me wrong I'm not down on anybody..it just seems that more emphasis is being put on this than real spiritual knowledge that is gained through simply reading the scriptures..but maybe I'm wrong..never practiced studying the bible using hermeneutics.

blessings

You really don't have a grasp on what is being discussed or the reasons behind it. Why not address the information specifically as to what is wrong with what is being presented? What I see is nothing more than anti-intellectualism. If it requires a brain, then it is not of God, or is fleshly, as if the Holy Spirit and the intellect are at odds. They are not.

I can imagine a scenario a young boy arguing with his mother about taking his vitamins and the need for them , much the same way proper interpretation of Scripture is being approached in this thread. The young child asks his mother, "Why do I need these vitamins?? Will not taking my vitamins mean I won't be rich? Will I get more friends if I take my vitamins, will people like less if I don't? Will taking my vitamins help me marry a prettier woman, or own a bigger house? Will I fail to become President of the United states without this vitamin pill?"

Just like the young boy in that analogy completely misses the point behind taking the vitamin pill, and does not understand the vital purpose vitamins serve, you completely miss the point, and either cannot or will not understand the vital purpose the good hermeneutics play in the life of the church and in the lives of believers.

it just seems that more emphasis is being put on this than real spiritual knowledge that is gained through simply reading the scriptures

That is baloney, and there is nothing in this thread to support such an absurd assertion. I have said over and over again, that hermeneutics in no way detracts from the spiritual and eternal perspectives of the Bible as the Word of God. Its just that hermeneutics provide boundaries. Hermeneutics provide an objective means of testing what people say when they come with a "word from God."

It also provides a way to demonstrate the fallacy of many heretics who use the Bible to promote their agenda. It gives us the ability to provide a defense against false doctrine, as well as provide an intellectually satisfying answer to questions from true seekers who question us about our faith. I notice that no matter how many times I have brought up the issue of refuting cultic interpretations, you ignore that subject.

Hermeneutics are designed to demonstrate the veracity of the Scriptures and allow the meaning the Holy Spirit intended to convey to be understood. It is not enough to say, "I'll just sit here and wait for the Holy Spirit to drop it in me. The Lord rewards diligence not sloth. The Bible is designed so that there is not one verse that contains all of the truth on a given subject. For example, the Bible does not say everything we need to know about the Holy Spirit in one verse. The Bible is not meant to merely be read. It is designed to studied. It is designed to searched out, to be questioned, and even challenged.

[jackie d]

That is baloney, and there is nothing in this thread to support such an absurd assertion. I have said over and over again, that hermeneutics in no way detracts from the spiritual and eternal perspectives of the Bible as the Word of God. Its just that hermeneutics provide boundaries. Hermeneutics provide an objective means of testing what people say when they come with a "word from God."

it is exactly the words you chose to use on me shiloh that prevents me from moving forward with your intellectual means of knowing the word of God.

Simply stated you are telling me that how I learn contains less knowledge of God than you. I say that is baloney. To me trying to learn the word in the manner that you do..does detract from how I learn the word of God..and it detracts from the spiritual foundation of the word, for me. It doesn't make my form of learning any less than yours...

And to state that because I don't study the word by using hermeneutics leaves me without boundaries of knowledge and the ability to test when people say they come with a "word from God", is (as far as I am concerned) is an ignorant statement. The gift of discernment can equally test and I can read, in fact I have very GOOD comprehension skills. So, to say that I can't take a word that someone states is from God..go to scripture and see if it is in alignment without hermeneutics is ludicrous....

I am not saying that people shouldn't use the tools they need in order to learn the word of God..not everyone needs to use nor are they concerned with using hermeneutics. My form of learning differs from yours and if anyone can show me...where it is ACYAULLY written that I must use hermeneutics in order to get a full understanding of the foundations of God and the spiritual understanding of His word, then I will switch to using this tool.

I will take under advisement your suggestion of using such a tool when heresy or something of the sort is in question..because it is a concern of mine to know that I am not falling for any sort of heresy, false teachings and/or indoctrinations. I do not dispute that the tool doesn't have it's benefits, I do dispute anyone stating that it is absolutely necessary at all times. But I will never take this tool and intellectualize scripture...and I am speaking only for myself when I state that to do so would detract from the Word..

What I am hoping for with what I have written is not to give anyone the impression that I think they are less of a person of God because of their intellectual nature...but to show that we all function in a different way and that we are neither greater or lesser than one another because of our differences in our unique natures. Because unfortunately I have seen many discussions turn from bad to ugly because of this error in our thoughts and attitudes towards one another. I have been guilty of it as well as many who are here tonight and have been here in the past..I have seen over and over the belittling of one another over this and find that every time this happens we slow our personal growth and our relational growth with each other, as well as step into sin for our wrong treatment of one another. It leaves people bitter and this bitterness always carries over into other threads...causing animosity and division.

In the future Shiloh, I would appreciate if you do not use such words as absurd to describe me or the thoughts, feelings or knowledge I may or may not have. Thank you

blessings

Edited October 31, 2006 by jackie d

[GeneV]

It seems that people will go to great lengths to make Scripture state what they want it to state...even if they have to violently destroy the inherent meaning of words. People will claim that God told them something, or that they experienced something, and EVEN THOUGH IT CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE, they will be applauded and encouraged. "God told me this, so you can't question it!" is the basic attitude and anyone opposing it...even gently...is seen as unspiritual, prideful, arrogant, etc. I've also seen people repeatedly try to use concordances or lexicons when they have not been taught (or studied) how these things should be properly used. In my opinion, this is like handing a dangerous weapon to a child. They wield these words around like toys, not fully understanding the power behind them, and they use them improperly to assert things that are not biblical at all. This can cause great damage.

Kabowd,

From this we learn that it takes many years to understand the scriptures. Another thing to remember is ; no one learns without help, Acts 8:30,31.

The Bible tells us that All Scripture is INSPIRED of God, 2Tim 3:16,17.This means both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures. The fact is that many times the KEY to understanding the Greek Scriptures, is the Hebrew Scriptures.

We need to realize that SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS SCRIPTURE, Gen 40:8, Dan 2:28.

We MUST believe that the Holy Bible is true, 1Pet 1:25, John 17:17, Prov 30:5,6.

Something very important is realizing that the Bible is unific,it paints one beautiful masterpiece.

Intertextuality remember that there are both categorematic words, that can stand on there own , and the definition is not affected bu the context. Then there are syncategorematic waods that can be used different, depending on the context, the words surrounding the word.

Another problem is called TROPOLOGY, which is a branch of Theology pertaining to when a scripture is symbolic, or actually the way it seems to indicate. There are metaphors, the Bible sometimes speaks in hyperbole, so it takes a great deal of time and study to understand what the Bible's message is.

Another problem is IMMEDIATE INFERENCE, where a person takes the first idea that the scripture seems to be saying and form a belief. Remember other scripture can modify, even complement the scripture, changing the meaning.

Another problem is sciolism, where a person untaught and unsteady, twists the scripture, either accidently or on purpose.

Another problem is Fiducial, or Fiduciary Trust, where a person has a teacher who he relies on and will not try to understand what a scripture is saying, but tries to make it fit in with what his teacher said.

Another problem is eisegesis, where a person will read something into a scripture that is not there, because he thinks he already knows what it means.

We must listen to what a scripture is actually saying and not what someone says it says. Taking anothers word is is hearsay, and is not a wise thing when it means your everlasting life.

A person who understands the scriptures always uses the Bible to prove what he believes, not relying on his own understanding, Prov 3:5,6.

A person who understands can be esemplastic, can make the learning easy, can simplify, by showing how each thing fits with other scripture. The whole Bible is completely harmonious.

Today, one of the biggest problems is the fact that religion has gotten far away from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. It is very hard for a babe to believe that almost none of the main teachings of the Oranized religions can be supported by the scriptures. To understand the scriptures,a person has to believe in risorgimento, a return to didache, the teachings of the apostles, a kerygma.

These are a few of the problems. If you have a question, I will answer you, being aware of all these rules.