What are the chances?

[SoulGrind]

Find the article by Farrell Till addressing this kind of argument. I would post it for you, but it would probably be removed by a mod.

SoulGrind, please address the argument Till gives. I am sure you can find the article very easily.

I am not finding any such article - if you really want me to look at it, send me a PM with where I can find it, then I will answer you.

[TheProcess]

I am not finding any such article - if you really want me to look at it, send me a PM with where I can find it, then I will answer you.

I can't use PM remember. I will explain the issue myself.

Before you can use such a probability argument as that tried in this thread, you need to show that Jesus actually did fulfill prophecies. To show that Jesus actually did fulfill prophecies: Firstly, you need to be able to prove that there was a prophecy to be fulfilled. Secondly, you need to be able to prove that Jesus fulfilled it.

With that in mind, lets look at a couple of examples of Bible prophecy:

Example 1

And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matthew 2:14-15 RSV)

Where is this supposed prophecy found in the Old Testament?

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (Hosea 11:1 RSV)

This isn't even a prophecy! And it certainly isn't talking about Jesus -- the "son" in question is Israel. It looks as if Matthew is taking the Old Testament out of context to create "prophecy". Now what a Christian may want to say is that the scripture is a "type" for Jesus. But Christians don't have any evidence for that, so they don't have any independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed.

Was there a fulfillment event? Did the family of Jesus go and stay in Egypt and later come back? We have no independent evidence of this, and the Bible story looks very suspect because the birth narratives appear to be inconsistent with each other.

So there is no independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed in the first place, and no independent evidence that it was ever fulfilled.

Example 2

Matthew 1 (RSV)

[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit;

[19] and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

[20] But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;

[21] she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

[22] All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

[23] "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,

and his name shall be called Emmanuel"

(which means, God with us).

So where is this supposed prophecy found in the Old Testament?

Isaiah 7 (RSV)

[10] Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,

[11] "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven."

[12] But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test."

[13] And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?

[14] Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

[15] He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

[16] For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

This was about a sign for Ahaz. How could Jesus possibly be a sign for Ahaz? And that it even talks of a virgin birth is disputed. Notice that the RSV translates in Isaiah 7:14 that a "young woman shall conceive". But even if it did say virgin that wouldn't help the Christian. It can't possibly be a prophecy about Jesus. How could the statement in Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted" be about Jesus?

It is so blatantly nothing to do with Jesus that Christians have to talk of "dual prophecy". But they don't have proof of that; that the text ever contained such meaning. So they don't have independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed. Do they have independent evidence of the virgin birth? No of course they don't. (Although perhaps it gets mentioned in apocrypha? But that isn't much help of course.) So there is no independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed and no independent evidence that it was ever fulfilled.

[Observer of dreams]

Process you seem to forget that the bible wasn't all compiled at once. Prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came. The book of 4 profits Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John are all witnesses to the messiah fulfilling prophecy. Process even if you want to be right here you can't because it deals with specific theological doctrine that is taken at ones belief or faith, and since you have none you can't test your own assumption.

Also in proving your point you cherry picked scripture to suite your preconcieved ideas. You already assume Jesus didn't fulfill prophecy so you will only look at the bible with biased and pick those things that suite your argument best. I could make an arguement that states that Jesus was the false son of God and the Devil is meant to geliver us to heaven and use scripture to back it up if I only paraphrase and take out of context.

Em‧man‧u‧el

1. Jesus Christ, esp. as the Messiah. Matt. 1:23.

2. Immanuel.

3. Pierre /pyɛr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pyer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, born 1916, French poet.

AboutBibleProphecy.com

Jeremiah's prophecies

JEREMIAH preached from about 628 BC to 586 BC (about 2600 years ago) in Jerusalem. During that time, Babylon took control of Jerusalem. Babylon began taking Jews as captives to Babylon as early as 605 BC and 597 BC. Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. Jeremiah prophesized that the Jews would be scattered from their homeland and persecuted. He also said that God would protect the Jews from total destruction and that they would one day return to their homeland and that the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. Today, we can see with our own eyes that the Jews have indeed survived widespread persecutions and that they have re-established Israel (in 1948), after 19 centuries of exile and persecutions throughout the world. Read more

Below is a partial listing of Jeremiah's prophecies.

Jeremiah 16:14-15

The second Israel would be more impressive than the first

Jeremiah 23:3-6

The Messiah will appear after the Jews return to Israel (Who is it that healed multitudes, forgave sins, had seemingly endless knowledge and wisdom, and had over 4 books written about him, some of which aren't even within the confines of the christian religion?)

Jeremiah 25:11-12

Babylon would rule Judah for 70 years

Jeremiah 30:11

God will save Israel and destroy its enemies

Jeremiah 31:10

God would watch over the people of Israel

Jeremiah 31:35-36

The people of Israel will never cease to be a nation of people

Jeremiah 32:36-37

The Jews would survive Babylonian rule and return home

Jeremiah 32:37-41

The exiled people of Israel would return to Israel

Jeremiah 32:44

Jeremiah said the Jews would buy back land

Jeremiah 46:28

Enemies of the Jews will cease to be nations

Jeremiah 49:16

Edom would be toppled and humbled

I didn't put these here to prove anything other than you need to look at things in their full context BEFORE comming to conclusions about things you don't understand.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Observer of dreams

[Joshua-777]

I am not finding any such article - if you really want me to look at it, send me a PM with where I can find it, then I will answer you.

I can't use PM remember. I will explain the issue myself.

Before you can use such a probability argument as that tried in this thread, you need to show that Jesus actually did fulfill prophecies. To show that Jesus actually did fulfill prophecies: Firstly, you need to be able to prove that there was a prophecy to be fulfilled. Secondly, you need to be able to prove that Jesus fulfilled it.

With that in mind, lets look at a couple of examples of Bible prophecy:

Example 1

And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matthew 2:14-15 RSV)

Where is this supposed prophecy found in the Old Testament?

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (Hosea 11:1 RSV)

This isn't even a prophecy! And it certainly isn't talking about Jesus -- the "son" in question is Israel. It looks as if Matthew is taking the Old Testament out of context to create "prophecy". Now what a Christian may want to say is that the scripture is a "type" for Jesus. But Christians don't have any evidence for that, so they don't have any independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed.

Was there a fulfillment event? Did the family of Jesus go and stay in Egypt and later come back? We have no independent evidence of this, and the Bible story looks very suspect because the birth narratives appear to be inconsistent with each other.

So there is no independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed in the first place, and no independent evidence that it was ever fulfilled.

Example 2

Matthew 1 (RSV)

[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit;

[19] and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

[20] But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;

[21] she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

[22] All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

[23] "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,

and his name shall be called Emmanuel"

(which means, God with us).

So where is this supposed prophecy found in the Old Testament?

Isaiah 7 (RSV)

[10] Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,

[11] "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven."

[12] But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test."

[13] And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?

[14] Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

[15] He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

[16] For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

This was about a sign for Ahaz. How could Jesus possibly be a sign for Ahaz? And that it even talks of a virgin birth is disputed. Notice that the RSV translates in Isaiah 7:14 that a "young woman shall conceive". But even if it did say virgin that wouldn't help the Christian. It can't possibly be a prophecy about Jesus. How could the statement in Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted" be about Jesus?

It is so blatantly nothing to do with Jesus that Christians have to talk of "dual prophecy". But they don't have proof of that; that the text ever contained such meaning. So they don't have independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed. Do they have independent evidence of the virgin birth? No of course they don't. (Although perhaps it gets mentioned in apocrypha? But that isn't much help of course.) So there is no independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed and no independent evidence that it was ever fulfilled.

Try Isaiah 53, which was fulfilled in all 4 gosples. The crusifiction of Christ, written 700 years before he came. and well, even the koran states about the virgin birth. Whats funny, is even the history channel states there is evidence to suport that, even the ones that are trying to prove Jesus wrong.

[TheProcess]

Process you seem to forget that the bible wasn't all compiled at once. Prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came.

Presumably this is in response to me saying, "there is no independent evidence that a prophecy ever existed" for the two examples?

If so, you haven't understood what was being said. The point being made, is that you only have the claim of the New Testament that a prophecy existed. When you examine the O.T., it appears to have been taken out of context.

[TheProcess]

Also in proving your point you cherry picked scripture to suite your preconcieved ideas. You already assume Jesus didn't fulfill prophecy so you will only look at the bible with biased and pick those things that suite your argument best. I could make an arguement that states that Jesus was the false son of God and the Devil is meant to geliver us to heaven and use scripture to back it up if I only paraphrase and take out of context.

No, it isn't me that takes scripture out of context. That would be the gospel writers!

I have limited time, I did a couple of examples. But look, if I were allowed, I would be posting links that address all the claimed "Messianic prophecies" that Jesus supposedly fulfilled. You Christians can use copy/paste material and links, whereas if I post material it will likely be removed.

[Guest mareesta]

Some food for thought...

What are the chances that one man could fulfill even eight of the prophecies of the Messiah?

In 1969, a mathematician named Peter W. Stoner gave his students eight prophecies that were fullfilled by Christ and asked the students to figure the probability of their all being fullfilled. The prophecies he chose stated that the Messiah would...

1. Be born in Bethlehem (Prophecy: Micah 5:2 - Fullfilled: Matthew 2:1-6; Luke 2:4-7)
   
2. Be preceded by a messenger (Prophecy: Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1 - Fullfilled: Matthew 3:1; Mark 1:1-3; Luke 3:1-6)
   
3. Ride on a donkey (Prophecy: Zechariah 9:9 - Fullfilled: Matthew 21:6-11; Luke 19:28; John 12:12-15)
   
4. Be betrayed by a friend (Prophecy: Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:20-25, 47-50; Luke 22:3-6; John 13:18-30)
   
5. Be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:14-16; 27:3-10)
   
6. Be betrayed for money used to purchase the potter's field (Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13 - Fullfilled: Matthew 26:14-16; 27:3-10)
   
7. Be silent as a lamb (Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7 - Fullfilled: Matthew 27:12-14; Mark 15:3-5)
   
8. Have his hands and feet pierced (Prophecy: Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10 - Fullfilled: Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:20-28)
   

The class came up with a whopping number: the combined probability of one person's fullfilling eight of the Old Testament prophesies would be one chance in 1E+17. (Yes, that's a one followed by seventeen zeros.) And since the initial finding by Stoner's students, his grandson Don has updated the number to 1E+18, since the world's population is now larger.

See http://www.geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html

Inside the Mysteries of the Bible

The American Bible Society

Copyright 2006

There are (at least) 17 prophecies documenting the coming Messiah. There are 17 fullfillments of prophecy documented that show Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah. There are other prophecies related to events pertaining to the crucifixion that have also been fullfilled.

I'd say that if the one man was the Son of God, that His chances of fulfilling all of those and many other conditions would be 100%+

[Observer of dreams]

Also in proving your point you cherry picked scripture to suite your preconcieved ideas. You already assume Jesus didn't fulfill prophecy so you will only look at the bible with biased and pick those things that suite your argument best. I could make an arguement that states that Jesus was the false son of God and the Devil is meant to geliver us to heaven and use scripture to back it up if I only paraphrase and take out of context.

No, it isn't me that takes scripture out of context. That would be the gospel writers!

I have limited time, I did a couple of examples. But look, if I were allowed, I would be posting links that address all the claimed "Messianic prophecies" that Jesus supposedly fulfilled. You Christians can use copy/paste material and links, whereas if I post material it will likely be removed.

What's funny abou this is I don't like that either. I post stuff from nagmahadi and it gets removed all the time, also it does make you seem like your spouting rhetoric because we can't put your words into context due to this censorship thing.

The new testament is not something to lump together like you have, this is what I mean "not written all at once." The NT was written by several different people over long periods of time as well. Original texts were around the time a Christ but the carbon dating of later writing suggests they were written around 70-80 Ano Domini.

This whole concept of God and Jesus is a paradox. Meaning that it is a series of premisis that leads to a conclusion that contradicts the premisis themselves.

[TheProcess]

The new testament is not something to lump together like you have, this is what I mean "not written all at once." The NT was written by several different people over long periods of time as well. Original texts were around the time a Christ but the carbon dating of later writing suggests they were written around 70-80 Ano Domini.

It isn't clear to me what point you are actually making. Could you explain how this connects with the issue of prophecy?

[TheProcess]

Try Isaiah 53, which was fulfilled in all 4 gosples.

You could have an eyewitness to the death of Jesus of course, but not to his death atoning for sin. So the gospels are telling us something which there could never have been an eyewitness to.

even the koran states about the virgin birth. Whats funny, is even the history channel states there is evidence to suport that, even the ones that are trying to prove Jesus wrong.

Who cares what the Quran says? As for the history channel, could you explain the evidence that you are talking about?