Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[apothanein kerdos]

I would encourage all of you to read Christian Theodicy in Light of Genesis and Modern Science.

Well, I just made it through the 50+ pages of this essay and I say it's well worth the time.

Has anybody else read it?

I'll get the next one tomorrow.

Okay, I've read the second. It repeats and summarizes a few of the points in the first, but certainly not all. It also sheds some light on the suffering of mankind and the suffering of Christ on the Cross. Again, very much worth the time.

HAVE ANY OF YOU GUYS READ THESE YET? ARE ANY OF YOU GOING TO READ THIS? I'm telling you, it helps to reconcile many of the athiest/scientific arguments with scripture. I assume that's one of the reasons you participate on Worthy Boards. AM I WRONG?

It's rare to run across an atheist, or even some Christians for that matter, that will actually take the time to go through some education on the material before debating the issue. For instance, many think that the problem of evil is the trump card for disproving God - they don't realize that this was used almost 2,000 years ago in the Gnostic crisis (only to prove God was evil) and that Christians have been answering this problem for 2,000 years. It is observation or arguments based upon common thought (what they have heard), not off any actual study.

It is unfortunate, and I wish that they would take the time to read through these arguments, as I believe they are well thought out.

[Ovedya]

This thread has nothing to do with Christian apologetics and everything to do with atheist apologetics. I have been told this is a Christian apologetics forum, wherein Christians defend their beliefs, not where nonbelievers defend their beliefs. In fact, other threads in defense of atheism have already been closed.

This thread should also be closed, as it is equally off-topic.

Atheists have apologetics? For what?

Atheists can defend their choice to disbelieve. This thread is asking them to do just that. It challenges atheists' disbelief in God by asserting that God will judge them and send them to Hell.

This is not Christian apologetics, and I request that you lock it.

Nobody's attacking atheists' choice to disbelieve. I'm surprised that you would find it unusual that atheists on a Christian board should be asked to defend their reasons for disbelieving. Maybe on an atheist site this kind of thing would be considered rude, but not here.

[Ovedya]

Nobody's attacking atheists' choice to disbelieve. I'm surprised that you would find it unusual that atheists on a Christian board should be asked to defend their reasons for disbelieving. Maybe on an atheist site this kind of thing would be considered rude, but not here.

I don't find it unusual or rude. These are questions I expect to be asked.

The issue I have is this forum's double standards. A few days ago a thread that dispelled Christian myths regarding atheism was locked. It was allegedly locked because it was "off topic." This thread is also about atheists, so it is off-topic--but it will not be locked.

So apparently atheists are not allowed to post threads about atheism; only believers can.

Do you understand what I am talking about?

Actually, no. If you look at Apologetics there are plenty of topic started by atheists.

[undone]

Since we have some new non-believing friends here on Worthy since this was originally posted, I thought I'd bump this and see where it may go.

[undone]

Since we have some new non-believing friends here on Worthy since this was originally posted, I thought I'd bump this and see where it may go.

Yer gonna make me blush.

I'll take "The Atheist's Wager" for $100, Alex.

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

(Source: Wikipedia)

So, let me understand this, you are in effect saying that IF the God of the bible exists, the good works you've conducted throughout your life should account for something and hopefully spare you from eternal separation from Him. Right? Am I close?

[undone]

So, let me understand this, you are in effect saying that IF the God of the bible exists, the good works you've conducted throughout your life should account for something and hopefully spare you from eternal separation from Him. Right? Am I close?

Yeah. Two points to emphasize.

1) Big "IF". I cannot absolutely deny God, but I'm pretty close to 100% positive that He (as defined by Christianity) does not exist.

2) If the good works in my life, and the humane and kind thoughts in my heart are insufficient to earn His blessing, then the 12 year old in me wants to stamp his foot and say He's not worth worshipping anyway.

Please don't apply too much consideration to point #2; it's point #1 that overrides my thinking. Also please realize that I don't get my moral foundation from this "wager"; it's more of an illustration of my response to Pascal's Wager, which is so often argued by theists. So if I find myself before God, the first thing I will assume is that I am hallucinating. And it might be hard for Him to convince me that He is real!

So once the acid trip is over and you've pinched yourself enough, if He were to judge you by the standards of the 10 Commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?

[apothanein kerdos]

So, let me understand this, you are in effect saying that IF the God of the bible exists, the good works you've conducted throughout your life should account for something and hopefully spare you from eternal separation from Him. Right? Am I close?

Yeah. Two points to emphasize.

1) Big "IF". I cannot absolutely deny God, but I'm pretty close to 100% positive that He (as defined by Christianity) does not exist.

2) If the good works in my life, and the humane and kind thoughts in my heart are insufficient to earn His blessing, then the 12 year old in me wants to stamp his foot and say He's not worth worshipping anyway.

Please don't apply too much consideration to point #2; it's point #1 that overrides my thinking. Also please realize that I don't get my moral foundation from this "wager"; it's more of an illustration of my response to Pascal's Wager, which is so often argued by theists. So if I find myself before God, the first thing I will assume is that I am hallucinating. And it might be hard for Him to convince me that He is real!

The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it only works as a "risk assessment" for believing in something.

I would say there is enough evidence, both physical and nonphysical (philosophical), that some type of a theistic God exists. This would obviously narrow it down to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (and offshoots of all three). If you can accept that premise, we can work from there. If not, let's establish that premise. You may want to start a separate topic for this.

[undone]

So once the acid trip is over and you've pinched yourself enough, if He were to judge you by the standards of the 10 Commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?

First, if He were to judge me only on the standards of the 10 Commandments, I would most likely be condemned. I do not agree with Exodus 20:2 as you can plainly see. I do not keep the sabbath according to Exodus 20:10. Do you? Depending on how Exodus 20:7 is interpreted, I would probably fail that too, as I occasionally have a potty mouth. I try to follow Exodus 20:17, but sometimes I slip there too: my neighbor's house is quite lovely. I'm reasonably faithful to the rest of them because they are consistent with my own moral standards. Nonetheless, it would probably be generous to award me a D+; only He knows if this is a passing grade.

Second, I would endeavor to ask Him (among other things) when he became disinterested in Exodus 20:24-26. Or all the judgments in Exodus 21 through 23. I feel strongly that most of us have failed to follow those laws; on this basis, are you sure that you meet God's standards?

In addition, consider when Jesus said that if you look with lust you've committed adultery in your heart and if you anger with your brother, you've committed murder in your heart. If the standard wasn't tough before, now it's impossible for any man to acheive.

So I, like you would be guilty and condemned.

Now let's make a general comparison to a civil court case. You go before the judge and he finds you guilty. He sets the fine so high you couldn't possibly pay it. Despite how sorry you are for what you did, if he's a good judge, he's got to carry out his job. All the sudden, someone comes into the courtroom and pays your fine. The judge says you're free to go because your fines been paid. You're overjoyed at this fact and give your eternal thanks to the person who paid your debt for you.

This is exactly what Jesus did for you and I. He paid the price for your sin and mine 2000 years ago on the cross. He alone was capable of fulfilling the demands of the Law so he was the only one capable of paying our fine. You have been set free from the condemnation of the Law by the act of Jesus Christ. All He asks you to do is to turn away (repent) from trying to get to God on your own (the Athiest Wager), accept the work that Jesus did for you on the cross, and believe Jesus was raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God. He sits at the right hand of God to indicate His work is finished. There's nothing you and I need to do gain further acceptance from the Heavenly Father.

I know you don't believe...but someday maybe you'll be challenged to hold onto your current position. I think its good to know that all the works been done. No matter how bad you think you are or what you've done, Jesus paid it all. All you have to do is ask for His free gift.

It wasn't long ago that I never really connected all the dots on what Christ's work on the cross meant to me until I heard it explained this way.

[undone]

It is indeed a lovely idea. Remember though that I do not use the atheist's wager to reach God, I only value it to help in making a point. My actual belief is that it is all--I can't find a more respectful way too put this--fiction.

I understand. No misconception about your views here.

[undone]

So, let me understand this, you are in effect saying that IF the God of the bible exists, the good works you've conducted throughout your life should account for something and hopefully spare you from eternal separation from Him. Right? Am I close?

Yeah. Two points to emphasize.

1) Big "IF". I cannot absolutely deny God, but I'm pretty close to 100% positive that He (as defined by Christianity) does not exist.

2) If the good works in my life, and the humane and kind thoughts in my heart are insufficient to earn His blessing, then the 12 year old in me wants to stamp his foot and say He's not worth worshipping anyway.

Please don't apply too much consideration to point #2; it's point #1 that overrides my thinking. Also please realize that I don't get my moral foundation from this "wager"; it's more of an illustration of my response to Pascal's Wager, which is so often argued by theists. So if I find myself before God, the first thing I will assume is that I am hallucinating. And it might be hard for Him to convince me that He is real!

The problem with Pascal's Wager is that it only works as a "risk assessment" for believing in something.

I would say there is enough evidence, both physical and nonphysical (philosophical), that some type of a theistic God exists. This would obviously narrow it down to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (and offshoots of all three). If you can accept that premise, we can work from there. If not, let's establish that premise. You may want to start a separate topic for this.

I don't know about spblat, but I'm certainly game.