Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[Ishamael]

Cobalt, I do not need to know what you adhere to, to claim there are people, who do not adhere to what you practice.

Why I`m here? To see, if you christians are utterly evil in my understanding, or if there are decent minds between you, which I could not expect a backstab from every moment.

So far, my experience with christians (once again) is not favorable, and every encounter makes it worse.

I`ve been accepted and welcomed in all kinds of circles - atheist, pagan, buddhist, hinduist... For crying out loud, one of the most genuinely good persons I know, grandpa Mahmud, is a devout Muslim. That did not prevented him or me from helping each other to solve our mutual problems.

The only socium that universally rejected me was christianity. There is something inherently xenophobic with christianity, something that drives me away all the time. And I want to know, what is it, and if it`s really as universal, as it seems to be.

I`m looking for christian socium, that has it within itself to peacefully coexist with everyone else.

Can I have directions to such... Anyone?

___

As for God and Satan...

Satan is a creation of God. God is perfectly aware of what Satan is capable. Yet, God does nothing to prevent Satan from doing evil. This means God condones evil.

Think about it..... Father (God) brings rabid pitbull (Satan) into his children`s playroom (Existance) and lets pitbull loose on his children (humanity).

HOW is that benevolent? Any human to do this would be rightfully called a sadistic abomination. And yet, this is your All-Loving God?

No. The only reasonable explanation would be, that there is NO God, and NO Satan.

Humans have sole responsibility for what they do, for every single breath, step and word.

And they better be prepared to deal with repricussions of those actions.

There is no sin, and no virtue. No morals and no commandments. Just humans.

Humans, who like to control other humans and play with dolls and gods.

This is scary, isn`t it? There is NO judgement, but the one rendered by humans onto humans.

No rules, but ones rendered by humans onto humans.

And no forgiveness. Simply.... None. No use waiting for such. Better accept responsibility and step up to make things right.

[Ishamael]

Well, Cobalt, I haven`t accused you of being hostile, yet?

Those are my reasons for being here. I`m trying to understand, why christianity had rejected me so far.

Obviously, I try to be respectful within my limits - aka, not lowering myself to personal slander or "ur religuun sukz" commmnts (shudder). As long as people return the favor, I`m more then fine here.

Heard the saying - "Truth is often born in argument."? That might quite happen here as well.

____

As for problem... I`m assuming, that you are talking about the problem of life in general...

It`s really simple for me. "Stand up, and try to make world around you a better place. Don`t wait for God, Devil or other people to do it for you - if you want things done, you do them yourself."

As such, I tend to examine every situation logically, and seek the best way to further my own means and ideals.

[WayneB]

I`ve been accepted and welcomed in all kinds of circles - atheist, pagan, buddhist, hinduist... For crying out loud, one of the most genuinely good persons I know, grandpa Mahmud, is a devout Muslim. That did not prevented him or me from helping each other to solve our mutual problems.

The only socium that universally rejected me was christianity. There is something inherently xenophobic with christianity, something that drives me away all the time. And I want to know, what is it, and if it`s really as universal, as it seems to be.

Interesting perspective Ishamael. It is one of the things that attracted me to become a follower of Christ. The followers of Jesus Christ are "set apart" from all others. His true followers have no desire for this world or the things contained within it. It is our new nature friend.

I read a good book sometime ago entitled, "The Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini. The lead character, an Afghan named Amir, betrayed the trust of his best friend. Amir was haunted by his cowardly actions and disloyalty and spent years searching for redemption and forgiveness. Funny thing? He suffered greatly and almost lost his life trying to make up for his actions but even in the end, he remained unsettled. Why? He learned to forgive himself but he also learned that those actions could not be undone with any amount of sacrifice...at least on his part. As a Christian reading this book, it emphasized the need even more for a Redeemer and Savior, the One we call Jesus. Of coarse that wasn't the intent of the book.

[Ishamael]

That`s one of the points I raised before. How does one differentiates true christians and pharisees?

___

Why, of course my standards and my idea of what`s better for the world.

That`s how it always was, that`s how it always will be.

Cobalt, problem with your higher power is incredible inertia of this high power.

Noone can just pop over in God`s office, and say - "Good day, sir, it`s a good weather in heaven today, as always. Would you please put your resolutions on those papers? There are some problems, which we can`t quite solve by instruction. Oh, and fourth division of seraphims requests another cloudcarrier for better coverage over Asia, they`ve passed over a request for you to sign."

Thus, the task of actual decision on particular problems will fall on the shoulders of priest.

I believe I do not need to explain to you, what would happen, if a smart and cruel person would attain this title. For smart and cruel one it`s easiest, actually. Does name Torquemada rings a bell?

____

God`s commandments were not updated in two millenias. For all that time, the actual arbitration of questions had been relegated to priests. Which, obviously, could not afford pioneering ideas for the fear of being accused in subverting the holy texts, and persecuted for heresy.

But Bible does not have it all, anymore.

Back then, noone would think, that humans will ever possess the power to start a local Armageddon all by themselves, noone thought that humans would fly through sky, or lurk under water in metal contraptions.

There is no direct God`s commandment on this, and so, it falls upon human followers to figure out the course of action.

____

In this, you are not different from me - I just allow myself wider choice of options.

But both of us are trying to further our ideals and standards.

[jewelz123]

In a nutshell? I told you before, but you do not want to accept it. You claim to not believe in God, but say if He existed, He would not allow evil. You cannot have it both ways. If God does not exist, He does not cause or allow evil. He's not there, remember? Then the root cause would simply be humanity. Humanity is messed up. Always has been, always will be. Fact of life. You cannot change that, so the root question would be why are we messed up? Quite simply because humanity, by and large wants to either deny the existance of God, or refuse to allow Him to guide their lives. That's it. Why would He allow satan to control this world? God will not impose His will upon mankind. He gives us every opportunity to turn to Him, repent and accept His son Jesus, and many choose not to. Man has always thought he could make it on his own, that he does not need God. Satan steps into that vacuum that people create themselves by refusing to acknowledge God, they simply don't see it. If you choose to live your life without God, God is going to let you make that decision, but by default, you are turning control of your life over to the enemy, directly or indirectly.

That is VERY well said.

Sorry Ishamael - I got your name wrong! Odd how sometimes we see only what we want to, eh?

When I was an unbeliever, Christians frightened me too. I actually could feel my stomach churning and the adrenaline pumping. The fight or flight instinct would be very strong. I completely understand the physical response a person can have to an overzealous believer.

Now that I have gone from unbeliever to Christian I have wondered what causes that physical response. It isn't just because it's a different opinion - I never felt that way about a buddhist or muslim - have you? I really beleive it is because it's the Truth. As Cobalt says above that by default you serve God or the Other. Satan/Lucifer/Devil is the other and by default, you are serving him - your unbelief works to his advantage. Satan doesn't want you to know the truth, or hear the truth. Could it be that the physical response is Satan? We know that God does not make us fearful.

2 Timothy 1:7

For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Romans 8:15

So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God

Edited June 19, 2007 by jewelz123

[Ishamael]

I`m not scared of christians.

I`m sad for them. World is full of wonderful things, yet they reject all the marvels and secrets in their relentless hunt for love. It is very unsettling... Just how humankind in general yearns for love.

That makes the few of us who wants other things quite the outcasts, you know.

People automatically assume, that all is done in the name of love.

And so, they first assume, that I`m reaching out for that. And when they realise I do not, they assume I`m a heartless monster.

That is true, in a way. I have the advantage over moralous people, having no compunctions about doing what I deem necessary. What a lot of people do not get, that my reasoning will most of the time yield same result, as their morals - if for different reasons. (pardon the pun).

___

My remark about christians being dangerous much earlier comes from what I`ve seen lately, not from my personal fear of christians. As I said it then, I find the tendency to deny the facts the most dangerous. I would not want to ally with someone, who might reject facts like that. Who knows, what fact they`ll reject next time.

________

Cobalt...

You are supposed to do your best to further your OWN ideas and standards, simple as that.

If it so happens, that mine and yours conflict, we will have to work out compromise, or fight for it. Simple, eh?

As for your quotes... First is simply wrong. I`ve seen good tree give bad fruit, and bad tree giving good fruit.

Second - idealistic. If everyone loved thy neighbor, that would be it, no?

I`ve yet to see one iota of that love, at least.

When you`ll see the saint who does, please point him/her out to me.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Ishamael

[undone]

I`m not scared of christians.

I`m sad for them. World is full of wonderful things, yet they reject all the marvels and secrets in their relentless hunt for love. It is very unsettling... Just how humankind in general yearns for love.

That makes the few of us who wants other things quite the outcasts, you know.

People automatically assume, that all is done in the name of love.

And so, they first assume, that I`m reaching out for that. And when they realise I do not, they assume I`m a heartless monster.

That is true, in a way. I have the advantage over moralous people, having no compunctions about doing what I deem necessary. What a lot of people do not get, that my reasoning will most of the time yield same result, as their morals - if for different reasons. (pardon the pun).

___

My remark about christians being dangerous much earlier comes from what I`ve seen lately, not from my personal fear of christians. As I said it then, I find the tendency to deny the facts the most dangerous. I would not want to ally with someone, who might reject facts like that. Who knows, what fact they`ll reject next time.

________

Cobalt...

You are supposed to do your best to further your OWN ideas and standards, simple as that.

If it so happens, that mine and yours conflict, we will have to work out compromise, or fight for it. Simple, eh?

As for your quotes... First is simply wrong. I`ve seen good tree give bad fruit, and bad tree giving good fruit.

Second - idealistic. If everyone loved thy neighbor, that would be it, no?

I`ve yet to see one iota of that love, at least.

When you`ll see the saint who does, please point him/her out to me.

What is your definition of love?

[Ishamael]

Mutual attraction.

[undone]

Mutual attraction.

Do you know the bible's definition of love?

[Ishamael]

Roughly.

I find it pretty unpleasant to wade through rethorics of explanation.

What I did dragged out of that would sum up to:

1) God cares for everyone.

2) God forgives everyone.

3) God will give bliss to everyone in heaven.

By everyone, as far as I can see, is meant "everyone christian".