No rapture or left behind

[larryt]

You cannot derive this chronology from this scripture. You have transposed the order of things as to adhere to your false understanding of the rapture.

From the passage the chronology is:
1. falling away

2. revealing of the man of sin.

3. the coming of our Lord & our gathering TOGETHER unto Him.

LT

Hi Larryt,
Well that's your opinion and interpretation of it and I am inclined to disagree. I hit reply instead of "preview post" before I was finished, so you have the pre-edited version in your post.

Chronological Summary of 2Th 2:1-3
Prior the Tribulation:falling away : departure from truth by the Church {Laodicea Rev. 3:14-22}, Ref: 1Timothy 4:1, But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
Tribulation and or man of sin revealed simultaneously- Our gathering together unto Him (Rapture)
Second Coming- Israel repents for their rejection of Christ first and call upon the name of the Lord. Nothing to do with 2Thes. 2:1-3
When Paul left Thessalonica some false teachers came in teaching a post tribulational doctrine and stated that the believers were now in the Tribulation. The Thessalonians were troubled that the Day of the Lord, the most common title for the Great Tribulation, had already arrived v. 1-2. Based on Pauls first epistle to Thessalonica they were already taught a pretribulational doctrine. Paul basically was reassuring the Thessalonians that the Rapture had not yet occured because the apostasy of the Church had not yet happened nor had the revelation of the man of sin, which is to happen prior to the Tribulation.

Peace
CJ

Hi C_J,
You did edit the post I quoted but it was up for over an hour. To incorporate the rapture you have to revise and add to the scripture. 2Thes. 2:1-3 is very plain and the order is plain.

1Thes. 5 is not teaching pretribulationism but watchfulness. If you are walking in the light you will not miss the coming of the Lord. And this is repeated in 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? WHAT THINGS? In 2Thes. 2:1-3 Paul is telling the Thessalonians the same thing he told them in the first letter and when he was there in person.

LT

[Christian]

We are told we must endure until the end and THEN antichrist will come and place the abomination of desolation in the temple:

Matthew 24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This one will come claiming to be the Christ (in the Greek, anticristos, anitchrist, means instead of Christ). In other words, antichrist himself will stand as Christ in the temple. In Daniel 9:27 [to which Jesus directs us], the correct reading of the phrase is "the abomination of the desolator" (not desolation). The literal Hebrew (from the masoretic text) in 9:27 reads, and I quote directly: "And in the half of the week he shall make cease sacrifice and offering, and upon a wing as abominations, a desolator [strong's 8074] even until (the) end and that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator." (Green's Interlinear) In other words, antichrist is the abomination of desolation. He will exalt himself over God. He will ascend the hill of God (Zion-the temple mount) and then set himself up in God's temple (II Thes. 2:4, compare Isaiah 14:13). Then great tribulation will come on antichrist and the world.

Matthew. 24:15-22: 16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Notice, Jesus has said nothing about coming and getting the church yet. Notice also that the elect, that is, Christians, will be there during those days, which will be shortened for the sake of Christians.)

After all of this happens, then Jesus comes and then He will gather his saints from the from the four winds and the ends of heaven. There is nowhere in these accounts that Jesus will come first and "rapture" the church.

While the Bible does teach that we will be gathered back to Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17), nowhere does it teach that this will be a separate event from the gathering of the elect of Matthew 24:31. The preceding passage tells that there will be no doubt when Jesus returns, All people everywhere will be aware of Jesus's return. There is no secret return. In verse 26, Jesus says not to believe it when you are told that the Christ is in secret chambers [a secret place--like the rapture].This event, after the tribulation, is THE time when the church is gathered back to the Christ. There is no other.

-C-

[eric]

Hi CJ, here's part of your post I think to LarryT

Also keeping in mind that the verses (2Th 2:1-3) can also have an entirely different meaning and is not a statement of opposition to the Timing of the Rapture whatsoever, but clearly defines the state of apostasy within the Church in latter days, prior to the day of the Lord (Day of Christ). This passage has two events which are said to occur before the day of the Lord, which always refers to the Tribulation

The day of the Lord, as I understand it is the day that God pours out His wrath of punishment on the earth, according to the OT prophets, and that is after the tribulation. I can give you some scriptures if you wish. It does not refer to the tribulation, which is not caused by the Lord, but the impersonation of the Lord by the antichrist.

[Guest daddys_lil_girl]

Allow me to set the stage....

The time is the new world order under one religion. The antichrist is killing all who do not pledge his alliance. You cannot buy, sell, or trade without his mark.

What would you do? Where would you go? How do you protect your family? How would you survive? Do you have a plan if this horrible event should ever occur?

I don't believe I will be here during that time but if I am, would opt for survival until it's no longer a possibility and gladly be killed in the name of the Lord and during that time, as I have been bringing the Lord into our household, my children are old enough to make their own decisions. I would urge and plead for them to understand until the moment of execution.

There may be underground pockets that may survive but I would never take the mark, I'd would joyfully stand in line to die rather than pledge my alliegence to the antichrist.

AMEN SISTA!!!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

Here's the only plan you'll EVER need: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, AND HE WILL DIRECT YOUR PATHS."

I go for that one!! I believe God will show us what to do when that time comes. That's my plan, to walk by faith and not by sight and to know that all things work together for good for them that know God and are called according to his purpose. He said he will provide for ALL our needs, and I believe He will! What is most important is that we need to be in a right relationship with Him and that we need to hide in the shelter of His wings. He will take care of the rest.

[eric]

Thanks for getting back to CJ. Below is a little excerpt from a source I will give you if you so desire. It is always been my belief years before I stumbled across it.

Scripture describes several natural phenomena that will accompany the Day of the Lord. These include a great earthquake (Is. 13:13; Ezek. 38:19-20; Joel 3:16; Haggai 2), clouds and darkness (Joel 2:2; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15) and the sun, moon and stars going dark (Is. 13:10, Joel 2:10, 3:15). The prophet Joel, who speaks almost entirely of the Day of the Lord, even gives us the sequence of these events. He states that, "the sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes" (Joel 2:31). It is very clear from this verse that before the Day of the Lord begins, before God begins to pour out his wrath on wicked mankind, there will be signs in the heavenlies. Joel makes it clear that BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins, God will announce it by making the sun and moon go dark

And this happens after the trib. If you want the URL I will pm to you if you like. There is a big difference, biblically, between the Lord's day and the day of the Lord. The tribulation is not the work of God, but the a/c making war on the saints, before the day of the Lord.

eric.

[larryt]

I agree watchfullness is quite aparent all throughout scripture and is no different or of exception in this case . Once again in 1Thes. 5 we have the term day of the Lord which is a reference to the Tribulation. At a time when men are saying peace and safety the destruction of the Tribulation will come with devastating force. The travails upon mankind during the Tribulation comes like a thief in the night, the devastation and destruction delivered upon mankind by the hand of God, it is not a reference to the second coming but a reference to the day of reckoning, the Great Day of Jehovah.

Hi C_J,

Again you make the assumption that the day of the Lord is the Tribulation. As Eric pointed out the day of the Lord has certain precursors. You extrapolate "sudden destruction" to "destruction of the Tribulation" which is not in this text. This is your springboard for the rest of you posting. The premise is wrong, therefore the conclusions are suspect.

1Thes. 5:3 clearly defines those who are to pass through the Tribulation as them the reference is not directed at the believers from Thessalonica. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. No where is it found that believers are involved in the devastation or wrath of the Tribulation period and which I also find quite interesting is that the end of the verse clearly defines "them" as having no escape, the words us or we are not used to describe those involved.

C_J again you interject "Tribulation period" into this text and it is not there. If the Holy Spirit wanted to use tribulation He would have.

The destruction that is to come on "them" that they will not escape does not necessitate the removal out of the earth to those that do escape.

Agreed, believers are not appointed to wrath.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

But again this does not necessitate the rapture. The Lord kept the Hebrews in Egypt at the same time He poured out His wrath on the Egyptians(a type of the tribulation).

Taking that into consideration,someone seems to have escaped the Tribulation period.

From this text they escape sudden destruction. Again The Tribulation is not in this text.

The key thing that Paul had taught them while he was still with them (v.5) was the fact that the takeover of the Jewish temple and the self-declaration of deity will be restrained, and until the restrainer is removed, the events of verse four cannot occur (v.6). Then Paul reminds his readers that the mystery of lawlessness is already working and is even now being restrained (v.7).

And them in 2Thes. 2:3 Paul REMINDS THEM that the day of the Lord shall not come UNTIL after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

In either case I still have to correct myself because the revealing of the Antichrist cannot take place until the midway point of the Tribulation period, the point that I am trying to make, as we already know Rapture discussions are futile, I merely pointed out that I can substantiate with scripture without extra-biblical interpretation, that 2Thes. 2:1-3 does not in any way shape or form work as scriptural support as opposition to the Rapture that it somehow supports a timeline of the Second Coming, it is a doctrine of the Tribulation period.

Where does it say the revealing of the Antichrist cannot take place until the midway point of the Trib. period?

I do not KNOW that rapture discussions are futile. EARNESTLY CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH is never futile.

As I think I have shown, you cannot conclude that this scripture is talking about the Tribulation without adding to the passage. A 2 part return of the Lord is nowhere to be found in scripture.

LT

[buckthesystem]

I believe if there is to be a time of tribulation, what is known as the rapture will occur at the second coming of Christ anyway, not before, which will be after the time of tribulation.

I don't believe that it will be in my lifetime.

However, if it is, I place no great value on my survival, but I know the rest of my family will want to survive and live as best they can. The only way to "see your way through this" is to be pretty much self sufficient in producing your own food and having your own source of water or knowing how to live without "buying and selling". Those who rely on "state assistance" will be the most vulnerable.

I have always been a rebel and suspicious of any new "plan" or "registration requirement" and have so far found ways around "giving in to state blackmail" so the way I see it, if I continue to do this, I will have the best chance of "not taking the MOB". It is all very well to say "I will never take the antiChrist's mark of the beast" but I believe that when it does come along we will be so confused by so many "new requirements" that it may not be so obvious to us what it is. It is not as if the antichrist's one world government will suddenly order people to line up to have the words "mark of the beast" and a little picture of satan, branded on their forehead, and those who refuse beheaded on the spot. It will be done with stealth and "boiling frog syndrome", and most people will find a way to justify it in their own minds - including many Christians.

It will not be a simple choice: Take the mark or die, rather more: "Take the mark or be bankrupted" - something, unfortunately, that people seem to value more. Another thing that people who don't want to cooperate with "taking the mark" will come up against is ridicule from other people just like them, the antichrist won't even need to persuade a lot of people - they will "take the mark" to avoid being singled out and laughed at, then justify it to themselves by saying "it is quite harmless really, and I do have God to protect me".

The best plan any of us can have for survival in the o/p's scenario is to lobby hard for a major change of heart for every citizen in the whole world. We've got to get back to thinking for ourselves and away from our worship of technology, and trust in God.

I think the biggest enemy of Christians trying to survive through a period of tribulation will probably be other Christians. They can have an incredibly "one eyed" attitude towards prophesy.

[Joshua-777]

hmmm. good question , in scripture I am more lead to believe in a mid tribulation rapture, what would I do? Preach the word, become a farmer, and if I die, I'll be home, I hope the rapture will happen before all of this, but I'm lead to believe that it will happen around the 7th seal.

[billie]

Well, howdy Farmer Josh!