What do you object to regarding Christianity and Jesus?

[Guest]

No Fooling?

{I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.}

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1 )

[EricH]

On faith, Christians believe that God would not lie to us... and there is no reason to believe that an omniscient and omnipotent and eternal being would have any reason to lie. Am I wrong?

If things are ethically neutral before God wills, then God is presumably as likely to be lying as telling the truth.

The devil is the father of lies. God cannot go outside His character. His character isnt to lie. That the Lord has exacted punishment on sinners already condemned to die isnt immoral killing. You have placed a view on God that He is immoral for killing "innocents." When the truth is, He has chosen to exact the punishment of death for sin. God isnt immoral. We can trust in His words, that He wont just change His mind on a whim and suddenly send us to hell. God has shown throughout history that He honors His covenants. Our relationship to Him is based on a covenant. It cannot be broken.

I read another post stated contradictions in the Bible. I am confused. Talking about God says he is the Lord of war but at the same time the God of peace. And that he loves everyone, but then hates certain ones. Jesus is equal with God but then later God is over Jesus. If I need to post the verses I can... there were MANY. But I am confused. How do we know what is truth? and what God means by these things?

RT,

Why don't we deal with one issue at a time. Why don't you list one set of verses that are causing you trouble, and we can begin with them

[Guest mapletechie]

No Fooling?

{I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.}

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1 )

Angelina Jolie? Bill Gates? Both give substantial amounts to charity and have no "god" in their lives. You still think all people without belief in a god "doeth no good"?

And would you call people like Einstein and Richard Dawkins fools? Einstein believed in a god but only in the most abstract sense, in almost a deistic way.

[EricH]

No Fooling?

{I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.}

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1 )

Angelina Jolie? Bill Gates? Both give substantial amounts to charity and have no "god" in their lives. You still think all people without belief in a god "doeth no good"?

And would you call people like Einstein and Richard Dawkins fools? Einstein believed in a god but only in the most abstract sense, in almost a deistic way.

The Bible does not say that people who have no relationship with God can do no good. It says that the good they do, is unable to impart Spritual Life to them. Sin has touched every area of human life and brought about death (separation from God). Doing good things does not restore spiritual life. People however have always tried to earn this spiritual life through doing good things. The problem is that that good deeds do not have the power to impart spiritual life. Ony God can do that. Once spiritual life (reconnectedness to God) has been established, the good things we do take on new significance. Now instead of being accomplished in a context of separation from God, they are done so in a context of life (or connectedness to God). They now take on an eternal significance

[Guest mapletechie]

No Fooling?

{I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.}

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1 )

Angelina Jolie? Bill Gates? Both give substantial amounts to charity and have no "god" in their lives. You still think all people without belief in a god "doeth no good"?

And would you call people like Einstein and Richard Dawkins fools? Einstein believed in a god but only in the most abstract sense, in almost a deistic way.

The Bible does not say that people who have no relationship with God can do no good. It says that the good they do, is unable to impart Spritual Life to them. Sin has touched every area of human life and brought about death (separation from God). Doing good things does not restore spiritual life. People however have always tried to earn this spiritual life through doing good things. The problem is that that good deeds do not have the power to impart spiritual life. Ony God can do that. Once spiritual life (reconnectedness to God) has been established, the good things we do take on new significance. Now instead of being accomplished in a context of separation from God, they are done so in a context of life (or connectedness to God). They now take on an eternal significance

So the kindest, most selflish person can go to hell just for not having Jesus and a murdering psychotic maniac can accept Jesus before dying and get into heaven?

Real balanced system.

Edited November 9, 2006 by mapletechie

[Floatingaxe]

Yes. People who do good on this earth and not for God, get their reward here. That's it. But when we do good for God in Jesus' name, we receive a reward in heaven far greater. People who give vast amounts of money and do charitable works may very well be doing it for their own glory. Those who say, " I do these things because it makes me feel good," are admitting that it is for their own pleasure, nothing else. That is not selfless. They have already received their reward-- and how fleeting it is. The rewards we have stored up and waiting for us in heaven are immeasurable and eternal in value.

[EricH]

On faith, Christians believe that God would not lie to us... and there is no reason to believe that an omniscient and omnipotent and eternal being would have any reason to lie. Am I wrong?

If things are ethically neutral before God wills, then God is presumably as likely to be lying as telling the truth.

The devil is the father of lies. God cannot go outside His character. His character isnt to lie. That the Lord has exacted punishment on sinners already condemned to die isnt immoral killing. You have placed a view on God that He is immoral for killing "innocents." When the truth is, He has chosen to exact the punishment of death for sin. God isnt immoral. We can trust in His words, that He wont just change His mind on a whim and suddenly send us to hell. God has shown throughout history that He honors His covenants. Our relationship to Him is based on a covenant. It cannot be broken.

I read another post stated contradictions in the Bible. I am confused. Talking about God says he is the Lord of war but at the same time the God of peace. And that he loves everyone, but then hates certain ones. Jesus is equal with God but then later God is over Jesus. If I need to post the verses I can... there were MANY. But I am confused. How do we know what is truth? and what God means by these things?

RT,

Why don't we deal with one issue at a time. Why don't you list one set of verses that are causing you trouble, and we can begin with them

Has the time past now for that? I brought that up because of the lying. As much as I would love to get answers for that... shoudl I ask in here, or start another thread?

RT,

Feel free to start another thread if you like

[EricH]

No Fooling?

{I think it's the epitomy of arrogance to say you "know" for sure that God exists and that nothing will convince you otherwise because of a subjective emotional experience that you are certain is the holy spirit. You're totally closed-minded to the possibility that it's just that, an emotional response to the desire to believe.}

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalms 14:1 )

Angelina Jolie? Bill Gates? Both give substantial amounts to charity and have no "god" in their lives. You still think all people without belief in a god "doeth no good"?

And would you call people like Einstein and Richard Dawkins fools? Einstein believed in a god but only in the most abstract sense, in almost a deistic way.

The Bible does not say that people who have no relationship with God can do no good. It says that the good they do, is unable to impart Spritual Life to them. Sin has touched every area of human life and brought about death (separation from God). Doing good things does not restore spiritual life. People however have always tried to earn this spiritual life through doing good things. The problem is that that good deeds do not have the power to impart spiritual life. Ony God can do that. Once spiritual life (reconnectedness to God) has been established, the good things we do take on new significance. Now instead of being accomplished in a context of separation from God, they are done so in a context of life (or connectedness to God). They now take on an eternal significance

So the kindest, most selflish person can go to hell just for not having Jesus and a murdering psychotic maniac can accept Jesus before dying and get into heaven?

Real balanced system.

I understand your frustration. Part of your frustration is that you are attributing the ability to give Spirtual life to things that cannot provide it. You are right, the system is out of balance. All of creation has been impacted by the choices of humans to resist God and not follow His plan for our lives. It is unpleasant, but true. Reality has been drastically altered, as has the ability of humans to understand that reality

Our kindness cannot fix a broken relationship with God. Our selfishness is just a symptom of that broken relationship. When someone accepts God's remedy for the broken relationship, it is not just their eternal destiny that is changed. The potential to experience that connectedness to God is made possible in the current life situation. The murderer who truly accepts God's solution through Jesus is changed. They receive a new type of life. They are literally reborn spiritually and given the ability to commune and connect with God. They receive Spiritual life from Him. The nice person who refuses to accept God's solution is still nice. But they do not have spiritual life. And they cannot receive it by continuing to be nice

For a person to try and use their good deeds to fix a broken relationship with God will just not work. They do not have the power to do so. Deeds do not impart life. The bottom line is that even the "nice" person has a damaged relationship with God. They are just nice damaged people. But their lives are still touched by sin. It is not a matter of degree. You are either dead, or you are not.

[emeraldgirl]

The piece of this you haven't really answered (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people do have the capacity to meet God's standard of righteousness. The problem is that we consistently fail. Even if those among us who are trying their hardest fail. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done or God did not give us the ability to do it.

My presupposition is that people DO NOT have the capacity to meet God's standard of righteousness. Wasn't that why God "had" to provide the sacrifice of Jesus? Because NO ONE can be perfectly righteous?

[Guest]

{So the kindest, most selflish person can go to hell just for not having Jesus and a murdering psychotic maniac can accept Jesus before dying and get into heaven?}

"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death." (Proverbs 8:36 )

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23 )

{Real balanced system.}

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 )