A Roman Miracle

[artsylady]

Personally, since you asked, I do have a bit of a grudge because my grandmother was molested by a priest. I know that the catholic church, all the way to the pope, condones this kind of behaviour, by covering it up!

I'm not a Baptist but I'm pretty sure the Baptist church does not have a wide spread child molestation epidemic!

I'm pretty sure Baptists were not responsible for killing and torturing thousands and thousands over hundreds of years, as the Catholics are.

What ever your gripes are about the Baptist church, they're probably trivial compared to child molestation, torture and murder.

I read and re-read the New Testament. There is nothing to say that Mary is holy or to be prayed to. NOTHING. There is nothing to suggest Peter was the first Pope. NOTHING. There were saints who were living people during the time of Christ so the Catholic church's rendition on what a saint is is wrong. There is nothing to say that the bread and wine changes into read flesh and blood. I've seen one scripture used to 'prove' that sperm is sacred and it doesn't compute at all.

Were you hurt by someone in the Baptist church?

[Guest charlie]

The Baptist Church hurt my faith with all the lies. That's how I was hurt by the Baptist Church. I'm sorry your grandma was molested but it's not only Catholic priests who do that type of thing. Check up on the Pentacostals. One of their founders back around the early 1900s was pushed out of the very church he started for sodomizing young boys. The Pentacostals have a far worse record than the Catholics and their numbers are much smaller. Now I don't know of any CoC and Baptist preachers that have molested kids but I know of several that like to "dally" with the grown women in their congregations and have for years. Have you forgotten about Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert so soon. That's common among protestant ministers. The thing is with this sexual impurity thing artsy is that Satan has entered the sanctuary of Christiandom. What better way to turn people again Jesus Christ than to sexually corrupt the leaders.

As far as NOT finding certain things in the Bible you should turn this same method onto Baptist Doctrine. There's NO rapture, NO once-saved-always-saved, NO adult only baptism, NO testimony required before baptism, NO public going back to the church (like the CoC does). My suggestion is to take a fair and unbias look at your own denomination. That's what I finally had to do. But then, you'll have to take your eyes off of the Catholics for a while.

[Guest charlie]

Correction to my above post. I meant to say there's NO pre-trib rapture in the scriptures. While I'm here I'd like to say a little more artsy.

<<I read and re-read the New Testament. There is nothing to say that Mary is holy or to be prayed to. NOTHING. >>

How many times do you have to be told woman? Catholics DO NOT pray to Mary but they do give her the proper respect that THE BIBLE refers to. Or did you miss those scriptures in your Bible reading? Get yer concordance out and start looking em up. I haven't seen YOU give Jesus's mother any respect in the various posts of yours that I've read. You might want to find out what's actually said in a "Hail Mary", I was surprised when I actually read the words. Sure not what I expected.

<< There is nothing to say that the bread and wine changes into read flesh and blood. >>

Well let's be brutally honest here artsy. Maybe it doesn't change to actual flesh and blood. I'm not quite sure what I think about that but you must admit that Jesus referred to it as such three times I think. It's referred to as a memorial only once. I tend to think it changes to spiritual flesh and blood. We have a physical body yet we have a spiritual soul that lives in our bodies. I do think it goes way beyond just a memorial.

<<I've seen one scripture used to 'prove' that sperm is sacred and it doesn't compute at all.>>

I don't know what you're talking about here but I do have a question. Any other time you'll use one scripture to back up or disprove whatever point you're trying to make yet here you say it says something in the scripture then dismiss it. Why is that?

Now it doesn't say the word Trinity in the Bible. The JWs like to point this out then get called a cult for it. And by the way, in case you haven't heard the Church of Christ teaches that ANYONE who does not belong to that denomination is going to hell. So I guess that means all the Catholics, Methodists, Baptists and Pentacostals will be frying down there together.

[mobile21]

Mobile

The apparitions of Mary around the world are saying THAT IF YOU SHOW DEVOTION TO HERSELF(MARY), Salvation is promised!! It does not matter to me if Catholics are buying into this idea, or if Protestants are buying into this idea!

It is a doctrine of SATAN himself!!

Go re-read my post of what the Marian apparitions of Fatima are saying, they are a Satanic deception to draw people away from a SINGLE minded devotion to Christ!

There is ony one intercessor between God and men, JESUS CHRIST is His name!!

Only Christ Saves

Jesus Christ is no intercessor. He IS God Himself.

Intercessors are the ones recognized for their special grace.

Even when a christian prays for a person who is not christian, intercession is happening because you are entrusting that non-believer to God.

[mobile21]

Charlie:

What a terrible 'Baptist' story. But that doesn't mean that all Baptists believe this way. This preacher was way out of line. I'm sure the Baptist religion doesn't condone divorcing your current spouce to remarry a previous one. That is ridiculous. You found an isolated case about a preacher who went against what his church really teaches. In doing so, you've decided to slam all Baptists?

The truth, I believe, about the Catholic church however, is that once you are divorced, you are no longer allowed to participate in certain catholic rituals. The Catholic church DOES condone treating the divorced as a second class citizen.

You can't say what the Catholic Church believes in because you are not a catholic nor an objective person (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out ).

If you want to learn what the Catholic Church thinks about those who "re-marry", read the New Testament.

[mobile21]

I'm pretty sure Baptists were not responsible for killing and torturing thousands and thousands over hundreds of years, as the Catholics are.

Oops!

*Bias red alert*

I wonder how can some people hate so much the Catholic Church for the crusades, yet they support the modern crusader President Bush?.

I wonder.........

[mobile21]

Mobile21

Every single thing contained in the Bible is doctrine, that's why there were 2 Synods (Synod of Hippo in 393 and the Synod of Carthage in 407) and 1 council (Council of Florence in 1442) dedicated to choosing the right books to conform Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament.

No, not everything in the Bible is docrine. You are applying sloppy hermeneutics. The passage in 1 Kings 2:13-19 is a narrative passage. If it were doctrine, the Bible itself would refer back to it as such. The Bible in the NT would have made reference to it. It does not. Nothing in the NT says that this is a picture of Mary interceding for Christians. There are two kinds of scripture: Prescriptive and Descriptive. 1Kings 2:13-19 is descriptive. It tells what happened It is just a narrative passage. There is nothing in the Word of God that sets it up as applicable to NT believers. You cannot just take a passage and apply it any way you want. There are rules to interpreting Scripture. You cannot label anything you want as "doctrine."

To say that "every single thing contained in the Bible is doctrine" is very short sighted. 90% of the book of Job is nothing but Job's three friends offering him their "counsel." God responded that every statement made by Job's friends was incorrect. Therefore, the text that contains the remarks made by three of Job's friends cannot be considered doctrine.

So, to use 1 Kings 2 as proof that Mary is our intercessor is just plain bad theology, and you are incorrectly dividing the Word of God.

All the Bible is narrative because narrative is the depiction of historical events. You can learn the doctrine about the Son of God becoming man because of the "narrative" of the New Testament so you get to learn the doctrine by reading the biblical narrative.

As for the passage, I quoted it as an example of what intercession is.

[artsylady]

The Baptist Church hurt my faith with all the lies. That's how I was hurt by the Baptist Church.

Well, why look to another religion that is full of lies?

I'm sorry your grandma was molested but it's not only Catholic priests who do that type of thing.

This kind of thing is an epidemic in the Catholic church. Not only does it happen, the higher-ups cover it up allowing it to continue. No protestant religion can be accused as such.

The Pentacostals have a far worse record than the Catholics and their numbers are much smaller.

You're telling blatant lies. I won't discuss this with you any more.

[Guest charlie]

YOU are calling me a liar artsy? It is you that lie, though I don't think you set out to do it intentionally. You didn't address the many points I brought up in my last two posts. Are you having trouble with that? Isn't that really the reason you don't want to converse with me anymore? You said, why go to another religion full of lies. I've only been researching the Catholic church for a few months but for some reason my research seems to upset you, and a few family members as well, I might add. I'm starting to wonder if Satan is attempting to thwart my efforts to seek the truth. Anyway, I don't know what decision I'll come to as far as converting to Catholicism I don't know enough about em yet. So far, I'm leaning to the Orthodox Catholic. Anyway, I know now by your abrupt response that you must be a pentacostal. Whoa, you need to do some serious research there before you say one more word about Catholics dear. You are right about one thing. The pentacostals haven't been responsible for thousands of purges, crusades, and murders but they've only been around since 1901. Give em a couple of thousand years to catch up. That is, if Jesus doesn't come back before then. Anyway, here's a little article to get you started on your much needed research project. You should also go to a search engine and do some independent research for yourself. You know, you shouldn't call people liars unless you're ready to prove it. I'm not trying to be mean to you but you are a rather mean person yourself and you are bringing that out in me. Not very Christian of either of us. Don't be afraid to take the blinders off and really study. It's hard at first, it's like having the spiritual rug pulled out from under you so I know what you might be feeling at the very thought of straying from your comfortable world. Anyway, read the article and let me know what you think.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms2/cultministry/parham.html

Main Entry: sod

[artsylady]

Charlie:

Saying that the Pentecostals have a child molestation problem worse than the Catholics is a blatant lie. I will not discuss anything with you until you recant this ridiculous statement.