I Samuel 19:9

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, this is what I wrestle with. There are several occasions in the Old Testament of God ordering His people to slash open pregnant women's bellies, to dash the little babies against stones, to murder every man, woman, and child, even the livestock. These verses are very challenging. I don't believe such violence is God's will for mankind, but the Bible seems to portray Him as willing to use brutal means to accomplish His purpose.

Yes, God has exacted judgement on people throughout history. The brutal means you speak of, brings us to see that God will not compromise His holiness. God DID NOT command the Israelites to "murder every man, woman, and chld, even the livestock." God does not commit, nor command anyone commit murder. God exacted judgement on people who were disobedient. We see occasions where God used Israel as a means of accomplishing that Judgement. Murder is the wanton act of taking innocent human life for no reason. Murder is a sin, and God does not sin. What many people do not realize about those city states in Canaan, was that they were rampant with all manner of disease including sexually transmitted disease. God commanded the children of Israel to abstain from same kinds of practices including homosexuality and beastiality. Some scholars have pointed out that the disease was so prevalent that it contaminated everything. Even the crops were contaminated. God told the children of Israel to burn everything and kill everyone because the land needed to be purged. There is a lot about Canaanite history (too much to go into here), that once understood, one can see why God did not allow them to survive. Too often we see only one side of the issue and assume that we have all the information we need. God is consistent in His character. He always allows nations to repent before exacting judgement.

According to Scripture, the defeat of Egypt at the Nile was a well known event in Canaan. News of God's victory over Egypt was not a secret. Had the inhabitants of Jericho, Ai who knew of what happened at the Red Sea, and turned to the true God, judgement would have been averted. Because God is true to Himself, He made Himself known to them and gave them opportunity to repent. They refused, and they were judged. God allowed Noah 120 years to preach about the flood. The people refused his message, and they were judged. The people of Jericho, and the rest of Canaan had 40 years to repent.

[Guest shiloh357]

Mudfly

Everything was created by Him. Now...therefore, does SIN fall into the everything category? How can SIN belong without being created or having a starting point? (*scratches head*)

The question is how can God, who cannot even so much as look upon sin, create it? Sin does have a starting point, but I cannot see that it started with God. Sin is defined as rebellion against God. So how can God create rebellion against Himself? Why would He? Sin was first found in Satan when he tried to overthrow God. (Ezekiel 28) So, maybe that is where we should start. It is an interesting chapter.

[OneAccord]

I am not saying that God did create evil. What I struggle with is the fact that the Bible states nothing was created but by God. Everything was created by Him. Now...therefore, does SIN fall into the everything category? How can SIN belong without being created or having a starting point? (*scratches head*)

Maybe sin was some sort of accidental byproduct of the creation......Honestly I don't think there is an answer for this one this side of heaven. I mean, sin exists, so that means it was created. Whatever created it, it either purposed intentional evil or it is an unfathomable tool being used for a higher, worthy purpose.

Shiloh:

You post a good argument as always. You can certainly hold your own in a debate.

I still find it impossible in my finite mind to comprehend the purpose and reasoning behind the suffering of innocent people, especially children.......the brutal, bloody martyrdom of the saints, who love God with all their hearts......war, ad infinitum....

God also has the power to heal. Why not endow the children of Israel with the power to heal the Canaanites rather than slaughter them, as Jesus did?

[Guest Teri]

Here's my hypothesis and I don't know if it's right or wrong it's just the way it fits in my head. God knew even before he created us that to give us and the angels free will He had a dilema. I want them to love me with this gift of free will and the only way that can happen is if they have something else to chose from. So He orchestrated a choice. Lucifer was groomed to be beautiful, how could God not have known with the heart He put in Lucifer where that would go? Lucifer became prideful, how could God not have known that would happen? How do we say God is the Alpha and the Omega, that He knows everything from beginning to end and then say evil just kind of came up. That kind of sounds like God made an oops and started plan B enter Jesus. Anyway God knew it all before it even happened because He created it that way simply to bring about out of the ashes of it all a race of human beings and angels that are completely devoted and in love with Him.

Shilo can you give me the passage where God can not even look upon sin. I mean I can't find it, and I have heard it said often but Christ is God and He walked amongst sinners so I can't get that to fit in my little brain either. God told Moses what the people were doing, and He resided with them in the desert and they were not cleansed by the blood of Jesus. See why I'm confused here?

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

Lucifer was groomed to be beautiful, how could God not have known with the heart He put in Lucifer where that would go? Lucifer became prideful, how could God not have known that would happen?

Yes you are correct, God did know in advance what Lucifer would do, and what Adam would do. That is a far cry though, from saying that God created sin. God has both a perfect will and permissive will. He allows things to happen that are not in his perfect will. Rape, murder theft, etc. are examples of what God permits. He does not condone, nor did he create them.

How do we say God is the Alpha and the Omega, that He knows everything from beginning to end and then say evil just kind of came up. That kind of sounds like God made an oops and started plan B enter Jesus.

No, God did not "oops." The Bible says that Jesus was the lamb considered slain from before the foundation of the world. Jesus was not "plan B," Jesus' redemption of man was already worked out before God started creating the world. Jesus is THE plan. There was no other plan beforehand. God knew that sin would crop up as result of Lucifer's pride. He allowed it to happen, because he already knew how to deal with it.

Shilo can you give me the passage where God can not even look upon sin. I mean I can't find it, and I have heard it said often but Christ is God and He walked amongst sinners so I can't get that to fit in my little brain either. God told Moses what the people were doing, and He resided with them in the desert and they were not cleansed by the blood of Jesus. See why I'm confused here?

Actually, I do not think there is a single verse that says exactly that, but rather it is doctrinal statement based upon several verses that say things about God hiding his eyes from his people when they transgressed his law. Also it is believed that God forsook Jesus while He was bearing the sins of the world on the cross. One thing to keep in mind is that while Jesus is and was God while on earth, He was not walking in the fulness of His divinity. His glory was veiled by his flesh. He was fully God and fully man. That is the ONLY way HE could ever look upon the likes of us.

[traveller]

I am not saying that God did create evil. What I struggle with is the fact that the Bible states nothing was created but by God. Everything was created by Him. Now...therefore, does SIN fall into the everything category? How can SIN belong without being created or having a starting point? (*scratches head*)

Maybe sin was some sort of accidental byproduct of the creation......Honestly I don't think there is an answer for this one this side of heaven. I mean, sin exists, so that means it was created. Whatever created it, it either purposed intentional evil or it is an unfathomable tool being used for a higher, worthy purpose.

Shiloh:

You post a good argument as always. You can certainly hold your own in a debate.

I still find it impossible in my finite mind to comprehend the purpose and reasoning behind the suffering of innocent people, especially children.......the brutal, bloody martyrdom of the saints, who love God with all their hearts......war, ad infinitum....

God also has the power to heal. Why not endow the children of Israel with the power to heal the Canaanites rather than slaughter them, as Jesus did?

I've certainly turned this over in my head as well OA. And we both know that our thinking and God's knowing are waaaaay different. But, one thing that has seemed to jump out at me through this is this. That through persecution the truth flourishes. When the people are persecuted, they cling to their faith stronger and learn the word to the point of memorizing it word for word, book by book. And, some have witnessed the deaths of the martyrs and the word took root in their hearts. I certainly don't presume to know anything, but I do know that when I can look at it beyond the here and now, and concentrate on eternity and the rewards there, that justice will be done and rewards given. Sometimes, this dark glass we're looking through is REAL cloudy. At least it is at my end.

[Adstar]

Mudfly

The word for

"evil" in Isaiah 45:7 where God says that "I create evil,"  is the word in Hebrew for disaster, or calamity.  It is not talking about moral evil, i.e. sin.  God did not create sin.

Yes I looked that verse up in a number of versions and some do say "calamity" So that verse never caused me problems.

Now could I ask you how do you deal with the tree of knowlwdge of Good and Evil in the garden of eden?

Did not God place it there ?

Was it not Gods Creation?

quote from OA

Shilo, it would seem then that sin is some kind of imperfection or malfunction or failure on God's part.

OA Whatever the answer to this is you should never think that it that God made a mistake.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest shiloh357]

Adstar

Now could I ask you how do you deal with the tree of knowlwdge of Good and Evil in the garden of eden?

Did not God place it there ?

Was it not Gods Creation?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not sinful in and of itself. God simply gave Adam a choice. There is no reason to believe that God would not have allowed Adam to eat of it later. The tree was created by God, therefore the tree was not a bad thing. The sin was not in eating of the tree, but of disobedience to God's command. Had Adam passed the test, God might have seen fit to allow Adam to eat of it, or God may have had something else in mind. The presence of the tree in no way indicates that God created sin. God hates sin. Had God created it, it would have been a part of His will. This is not possible seeing that sin is the willful rebellion of man against the will of God. God would not have created rebellion against Himself. "A house divided against itself falls." Luke 11:17

[Guest dove2]

The Bible says that Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't. Adam could see clearly. Had he grabbed Eve and went before the Lord I have no doubt God would have forgiven her and they would have stayed in the Garden.

Adam willingly sinned to be with his bride. Jesus willingly went to the cross for His bride.

The tree was not sin. What caused sin was Eve was deceived and Adam ate of the tree willingly. That was the one thing God asked of Adam and Eve that they not eat of that one tree.

[Guest Teri]

So heres the deal Shiloh, Jesus was the plan even before man was created from the foundations. So God already knew how defective His creation was or He planned His creation with imperfection and sin for a higher purpose. We can't have it both ways.

The thing I keep thinking is God wanted a relationship with us, the only way to get that true form of relationship is by choice. The only way for us to make a choice is to give us one. In order to give us that choice He had to create and groom so to speak an advarsary. Sounds kind of diabolical but it's not how I mean it. In the end by our own choice we either live in eternity with God or not. With what God is offering us and what more importantly He plans to trust us with He needed to also know He can trust us completely so He can have a relationship with us rather than having to discipline us throughout eternity. It just makes sense to me that way for some reason. I can't see how God could have gotten a race of people who had free will but completely adored Him any other way.

As far as God not being able to look upon sin I still can't find anything that says that. He resided in the dessert with alot of sinful whiny people on the way to the promise land. He is watching us constantly and even those who are not christian are in His eye sight. He is everywhere all the time, in all time with a whole lot of sinners. Satan the king sinner went right up to His throne and challenged Him about Job and probably alot of other faithful saints. If what you are saying is true how is this possible?

In Yeshua's love

Teri