I Samuel 19:9

[Guest shiloh357]

So heres the deal Shiloh, Jesus was the plan even before man was created from the foundations. So God already knew how defective His creation was or He planned His creation with imperfection and sin for a higher purpose. We can't have it both ways.

The thing I keep thinking is God wanted a relationship with us, the only way to get that true form of relationship is by choice. The only way for us to make a choice is to give us one. In order to give us that choice He had to create and groom so to speak an advarsary. Sounds kind of diabolical but it's not how I mean it. In the end by our own choice we either live in eternity with God or not. With what God is offering us and what more importantly He plans to trust us with He needed to also know He can trust us completely so He can have a relationship with us rather than having to discipline us throughout eternity. It just makes sense to me that way for some reason. I can't see how God could have gotten a race of people who had free will but completely adored Him any other way.

As far as God not being able to look upon sin I still can't find anything that says that. He resided in the dessert with alot of sinful whiny people on the way to the promise land. He is watching us constantly and even those who are not christian are in His eye sight. He is everywhere all the time, in all time with a whole lot of sinners. Satan the king sinner went right up to His throne and challenged Him about Job and probably alot of other faithful saints. If what you are saying is true how is this possible?

In Yeshua's love

Teri

No, God created his universe perfect. He did not create it flawed. God knew that Lucifer would become his adversary. There is no reason to believe that God "groomed" Lucifer to be His adversary. God's foreknowledge of events means that He knows what will happen. It does not mean that he plans them that way. He could have prevented it, but He didn't. He had a plan in place to deal with sin. Just because offered Adam a choice does not mean that He wanted Adam to sin, nor does it mean that God created sin. God did not have to create sin in order to give man an environment of choice.

Now, the ulitimate origin of sin is a mystery. It is possible that it is the one thing Satan himself was able to create. God is sinless. He could not have authored sin. That is not possible.

I absolutely agree that God wanted us to have a relationship with Him by choice, hence our free will. God could do such a thing because He knew that even after man messed up, He could rescue us. There was a net to catch us so to speak.

As far as God not being able to look upon sin I still can't find anything that says that. He resided in the dessert with alot of sinful whiny people on the way to the promise land. He is watching us constantly and even those who are not christian are in His eye sight. He is everywhere all the time, in all time with a whole lot of sinners. Satan the king sinner went right up to His throne and challenged Him about Job and probably alot of other faithful saints. If what you are saying is true how is this possible?

I think that it is more than we can understand at face value. There is no single verse that says that God cannot look upon sin. Again, I think that it is doctrine that has been culled from several statements in Scripture. Later on, I will explain what I mean better. Right now, I have to turn in.

Blessings to you

[OneAccord]

So heres the deal Shiloh, Jesus was the plan even before man was created from the foundations. So God already knew how defective His creation was or He planned His creation with imperfection and sin for a higher purpose. We can't have it both ways.

The thing I keep thinking is God wanted a relationship with us, the only way to get that true form of relationship is by choice. The only way for us to make a choice is to give us one. In order to give us that choice He had to create and groom so to speak an advarsary. Sounds kind of diabolical but it's not how I mean it. In the end by our own choice we either live in eternity with God or not. With what God is offering us and what more importantly He plans to trust us with He needed to also know He can trust us completely so He can have a relationship with us rather than having to discipline us throughout eternity. It just makes sense to me that way for some reason. I can't see how God could have gotten a race of people who had free will but completely adored Him any other way.

As far as God not being able to look upon sin I still can't find anything that says that. He resided in the dessert with alot of sinful whiny people on the way to the promise land. He is watching us constantly and even those who are not christian are in His eye sight. He is everywhere all the time, in all time with a whole lot of sinners. Satan the king sinner went right up to His throne and challenged Him about Job and probably alot of other faithful saints. If what you are saying is true how is this possible?

In Yeshua's love

Teri

Teri:

I am in full agreement with your post. You have stated what I have concluded (with my puny human understanding) better than I have yet been able to.

As for the verse about God cannot look on sin, I believe it is in Isaiah and I will look it up today.

[Guest Teri]

Thank you One Accord. Shilou I'm not saying He created it flawed in fact the way I look at it is this is the highest order of things. But we have to concede He did create us along with the angels and we are definitely flawed. God could not make us in a way that we are perfect because then we wouldn't have free will. Let me start here. We are made in His image. Well God can and does have anger, jealousy, and wrath. God created the angels and us as creatures of a higher order so that we could make free will choices. God has the ability to know the outcome of all situations, we don't. God always has the best interest in mind of all creation, we have self centeredness. Being created in God's image we have the capacity for all the range of emotions God experiences, He did it this way to experience a relationship with us to it's fullest. One problem, God is also you could say self-centered but His centering on self includes the protection, love and care for all He created. We, the plants, the earth, the angels, all of it was created for Him by Him. As the creator He has this right. We don't, so we need to learn that. God before creating us could and did see the dilema in front of Him which was I want a race of people and angels that totally love me, and want the best interest in all My creation to be the most important thing to them. When we love Him completely all that He has created is precious to us.

Before we were created, before the foundations of the earth were laid, before the first glimpse of creation came to be the Son, Father and Holy Spirit formed this brilliant, mind boggling plan that would bring about a race of humans and angels that loved Him and worshipped Him to the point of excluding self. Then He said they will be MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD!!!!! This is not a bad thing the way your looking at it, but a mind blowing thing.

Of course He didn't create it flawed in fact He created it perfectly with all factors in mind to bring about His purposes for eternity. This existence is nothing more than a test, a wisp of time. That's all it is before we go on to live in His kingdom. While we go through our day to day here we are in fact working towards eternity by gettting stronger and overcoming things here. That tree from the garden is planted in each of our lives and at some point each of us walks up and grabs the apple. If there were no such thing as sin we would have no need of a savior and all this would be pointless. First we come to God because we need Him, and He created that environment of need. With out pain, lonliness, desparation, sin why would we need God? Once we find we can lean on Him completely and trust Him completely we fall desparately in Love with Him and when that happens than we want to please Him. Those are the ones He will be able to trust with His other creation (eternity).

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

Terri

I am in agreement with a good portion of your last post. I think we are saying the same thing, up to a point. I, however, believe that God created the universe and us humans perfectly with the knowledge that we would fall to sin. He had already formed plan to redeem us from sin.

I am confused with two things you have posted:

But we have to concede He did create us along with the angels and we are definitely flawed. God could not make us in a way that we are perfect because then we wouldn't have free will.

also,

Of course He didn't create it flawed in fact He created it perfectly with all factors in mind to bring about His purposes for eternity.

God created a perfect universe, but created imperfect people and angels? Again, I am not seeing it. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am having trouble with that.

The reason being is this statement you made:

We are made in His image. Well God can and does have anger, jealousy, and wrath.

If we are made in God's image, and we are imperfect, then God would be imperfect. If God is flawless, then He cannot fail, and he cannot mess up. God cannont create imperfection, because He is perfect. For God to create imperfection would mean that He made a mistake, and would thus cease to be perfect, and would lose the right to judge us.

As far as God's anger, jealousy and wrath are concerned, God does have those attributes, but he holds those things in a state that is untainted by sin. God's anger, wrath and jealousy, unlike the anger, wrath and jealousy of man are altogether righteous,and holy. These are not signs of imperfection on God's part. This is why God could not have created sin. God hates sin. Sin is rebellion against His Will. God would have to possess sin in order to create it. God is not a murderer, thief, etc., and thus could not have willed those kinds of things into His creation.

I believe that you are holding to the notion that God needed sin to exist in order for us to love Him more. I cannot really see that. I believe that you are operating from a incorrect premise.

Blessings to you

[Guest Teri]

Shiloh Here is my starting point. Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

This is only one of many scriptures saying this. Now to say that God did not create things just the way they are would mean to say it came from somewhere else for someone else. I'm just coming from the position that if it is here it was created by God, for God and nothing else in the entire universe exists except that which He created. Yes God's wrath and jealousy and anger are just, the problem is that to create us to the highest order to have the fullest relationship with us He had to create us with this full range of emotions. To fully appretiate love we experience hate, to fully appreciate the light we have the dark. To fully appreciate God we have His adversary.

I'm not saying this hypothesis is by any means perfectly accurrate but I can not say that God created man perfect knowing he was full of sin. He said it was good, He did not say perfect. I take it He meant this is good, this will work out to My Purposes perfectly. God like any parent has to teach us how to be caring, responsible, kind, generous, loving. that is what this whole thing is about in my head, a big training camp for eternity. God gave us this higher order of thinking and feeling and now He came up with the perfect plan to develop that. This here, life on planet earth is the perfect plan and it is incredible and completely just because we have choice.

I don't believe when we get to heaven that our free will is going to vanish so it needs to be tempered and I see this plan that God had from the foundations of the world as the most glorious thing there ever was. There is nothing more brillant in heaven and earth then this plan, this perfect plan. God can't take our will because then He would not get the relationship with us He so desires. But with this perfect plan He will and we will all be full of gratitude, appreciation, adoration, and wonder. And God does hate sin, and even though He created us capable of sin does not mean He posses sin Himself. And yes God did create an environment of us needing Him I mean we can do no good thing without Him so therefore He created us needing Him. We each have a place within us that only He can fill and we were made that way so we would need Him.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh Here is my starting point. Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

I'm just coming from the position that if it is here it was created by God, for God and nothing else in the entire universe exists except that which He created.

To fully appretiate love we experience hate, to fully appreciate the light we have the dark. To fully appreciate God we have His adversary.

So Terri, did God create rape? Child molestation? Child pornography? Incest? Adultery? Wife beating? Did He create these kinds of things?

I am sorry, but I have a hard time seeing that. Are you going to argue that a woman can only appreciate a good husband after she has had her brains beaten out? Can a woman only appreciate respect and dignity after she has experienced rape? I just do not think that your position pans out when we apply it in practical real-life scenarios. I would not like to see you tell an abused child that God put her in that situation to teach her about real love.

The passage in Colossians is talking about earthly and spiritual authority. It is not laying the blame for sin at God's feet. It is not meant to be understood as saying that every injustice we experience is because God put it there to teach us about the opposite. If I want my child to learn about honesty, I teach him what honesty is and I present myself as an example of honesty. I do not have to lie to him, or force him to experience being lied to, in order to accomplish that. I do not subject my child to pain to teach him the opposite, and neither does God. God instructs us by His Word and by His Spirit.

I'm not saying this hypothesis is by any means perfectly accurrate but I can not say that God created man perfect knowing he was full of sin. He said it was good, He did not say perfect. I take it He meant this is good, this will work out to My Purposes perfectly.

Do you have the linguistic knowledge to make this assertion? God only has one standard of "good." God did not say "it is good enough." God is perfect, and that is his standard of "good." Perfection does not beget imperfection.

I don't believe when we get to heaven that our free will is going to vanish so it needs to be tempered and I see this plan that God had from the foundations of the world as the most glorious thing there ever was.

In Heaven, there is no sin. There will be no temptation, then or in the New Heaven and New Earth. Satan and sin will not be there. There will be nothing there to test man's free will. There will be no pain, no tears. As it is written, "the former things will be passed away." It says that in Revleation. Read about the New Heaven and New Earth. So whether man as a free will in Heaven or not, isnt' an issue.

And God does hate sin, and even though He created us capable of sin does not mean He posses sin Himself.

Just because he created us capable of sin, does not mean that He created sin. God created us with the abiltiy and the right to choose. Unlike the fallen angels, we have an opportunity for redemption.

Blessings to you

[Guest Teri]

Shiloh sorry I do not mean to offend you. Look at the Cross and the brutality of what Christ went through to become a sacrifice for us. That brutality that He would suffer was planned from the foundations of the world. I'm coming from a very different focus point here. I'm looking at things from a stand point of the aftermath of a very hard and difficult life and now that I have gone through some horrendous stuff and still worship, praise, love and adore God above all else I can and do lead others to overcome all those things you speak of. I grew up as the child of a brutal alcoholic, with rampant incest in the family, and the last time I saw my father was at the end of a rope in the garage. Now that's the beginning of my story it went down hill from there. Because of insane dysfunction in my family of origin I became quite the sinner trying to find some happiness in this evil place. Well I found it in Christ and all that stuff that happened and all I did also became building blocks to becoming a very strong and mature christian. I don't regret the past anymore because I know without it I would have had no need for God. I went to Him in desparation and He delivered me from the pit. All my sister's but one has been delivered from there and the joy is unmeasurable.

This may sound crazy but as horrible as it all was I wouldn't change one bit of it. God knew before I was even born I would go through all of that and He also knew that He would save me from it. And what else He knew was that I would become a very loud lover of Him and I would be a walking talking testimony to His faithfulness and love. My heart breaks for all those who go through evil, but I also rejoice that I know the way out of the pain and God gave me the ability to share that.

Yes Shiloh heaven will be a place without sin, but that is after the whole deal is done. It was in heaven that Satan sold his wares. It is in heaven where satan led a rebellion.

But Shiloh I obviously don't know how to explain this in a way that is comfortable to you or in a way that you can understand where I'm coming from. All I know is what scripture tells me and that all things were made for Him and by Him and nothing was made that God did not allow. Thats all I know. And I still can't find anything that says God Can't look upon sin, that would mean I can do something He can't which seems pretty impossible. I'm going to let this one go now, if by chance we meet in heaven and I'm am wrong I will be more than happy to concede to that. God loves me even in my imperfection, and that makes it a glorious day to be alive.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

I am sorry for all that you have been through. I can accept that such things would have an effect on how you precieve the world around you, and how you approach spiritual things. You have not offended me, or made me uncomfortable in the least. I enjoy such exchanges of ideas. I have no doubt that God will be able to use you in the light of what you went through. God can take your experiences and use them to minister to others going through the same thing. So, you are potentially an awesome tool in God's hand and for his purpose.

All I know is what scripture tells me and that all things were made for Him and by Him and nothing was made that God did not allow. Thats all I know.

I ask you this respectfully: Would not a more accurate statement be," That is all I am willing to know?" Perhaps, you are not willing to know more. A simple Bible commentary can show you what that passage is Colossians is talking about. You are taking a scripture and applying it to fit what you already are disposed to believe rather than exegeting the meaning that the author intended to convey. Only when the writer is allowed to speak for himself, can we truly understand.

God knew before I was even born I would go through all of that and He also knew that He would save me from it. And what else He knew was that I would become a very loud lover of Him and I would be a walking talking testimony to His faithfulness and love. My heart breaks for all those who go through evil, but I also rejoice that I know the way out of the pain and God gave me the ability to share that.

I am glad that you have come to the place you are now. I can see just from reading what you are saying that you possess an incredible testimony. While I cannot accept that it was God's Will that you go through such horrors, I recieve a blessing by your obvious love for God and Spiritual strength. I cannot say for certain that I would have turned out as well.

And I still can't find anything that says God Can't look upon sin, that would mean I can do something He can't which seems pretty impossible.

God cannot sin. You can sin. You CAN do something that God cannot. Not that it's something to be proud of. Just making an observaton.

Yes Shiloh heaven will be a place without sin, but that is after the whole deal is done. It was in heaven that Satan sold his wares. It is in heaven where satan led a rebellion.

There are many scholars who champion the belief that Satan was not actually IN Heaven but rather spoke to God by means of an intermediary angel who could speak to God on his behalf. People take for granted that Satan was actually in the throne room. Sin cannot exist in Heaven, and would be destroyed in the fullness of God's glory. That is just what some people say. I am not sure how they arrived at that conclusion, that is just what they say.

It has been a good discussion. Hope to see you on other threads.

[Guest Teri]

Shiloh I couldn't resist, I already know what you speak of about Collosians it does not take away from the fact that God created all things for God. And I am not willing to take what some people say over scripture, because that would make me more comfortable with God. Job 1:12 last part. Then Satan went out from the Presence of the Lord. With no twisting involved and without reading someone elses commentary that clearly says God's presence meaning Satan was in God's presence. And that also means that God had in His presence the most vial sinful creature of His creation.

Shiloh it is not that I am unwilling to see it as you say, in fact it is the very same thing I used to believe until I really dug into the word. I can not go to the Bible and read about Satan creating a rebellion in heaven and leading a third of the angels against God and then say sin has never existed in heaven because this is obviously sin. I also can not say that God didn't know what he was up to, but boy when He found out He did something about it. It was these things that were inconsistent to what I believed that made me really start to think about it and be willing to let go of my preconcieved ideas about the whole deal. I especially can not read Job and the guy did nothing wrong to deserve what Satan brought against him with Gods approval and say that God does not let bad things happen without His express approval and for His own purposes.

Shiloh it would be very helpful if you could provide the scripture about sin not ever being in heaven, because I'm reading that it did. And if you could provide the scripture for God not being able to look upon sin. If you want I will also provide other scripture that says God created everything for Him and for His purposes. What I over the years and with alot of studying have come down to is God is God, and He created me as a rebellious personality and in order to bring me to a point where I was completely willing to submit to Him He had to allow me to go through some pretty tough stuff. Now I am very grateful for all of it because I am more than willing to rebel against the norm in order to Love God. He gave me that spirit of rebellion which He has worked to His purposes and now I Love Him out loud and I don't care when others call me a fanatic, or that I'm obsessed with Him. Because to both those charges I will yell yes.

Have a great and wonderful love filled Thanksgiving.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest PeterW.]

I believe that God created good as well as evil. I also believe that evil and sin are not the same thing. So, because God created evil does not mean that He created sin. Sin is choosing evil instead of choosing good. God created it all. And we have the choice.