Remember the Sabbath

[nanasimmons]

2 Cor. 3:6-11

Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament;not of the letter(what letter?),but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth,but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministration of death,written and ingraved in stones,(what was written in what stones),was glorious,so that Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance: which glory was to be done away with:

How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministraition of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect,by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

[Guest shiloh357]

As for your calling me immuture, your the one who still needs to be under a schoolmaster.

Your too busy with endless geneologies and when the actual time was when Judaism became the name for people who adhere to Torah/Law, law keepers. I understand the reason of this blindness (Romans 11:25-32).

No, I just bother to do the research, and I know how to use the terminology properly. It amounts to caring about the enough to get my facts right. Something you ought to try some time.

I also know that Hebews was a pain staking and patience attempt to get Jewish believers to recognize the better way of Jesus and His superiority over everyone/everything including the law, since He mediates a superior covenant. Obviously a failed attempt for some,but certainly not on the writer or Authors end.

Yes it is a superior covenant, but that has no bearing on the Torah. It is still a sin to murder, it is still a sin to commit incest, it is still a sin to cheat, steal, lie, and whatever else the Bible calls sin. The Torah changed only in the area concerning the priesthood, according to the book of Hebrews. The Torah was not eradicated, and there is no biblical support for saying that it did. God made a New Covenant, not a New Torah.

It doesn't matter what/how I say things, you are always calling people studid,ignorant,ridiculous,immature. It a bully tactic

to upset people and make them rant and rave, causing them to look like they are the idiots for defending the truth......

Usually people cut others down to make themselves feel/look better....(as our mothers have always told us)

Oh I see, you can accuse people falsely of "idolizing the Jews" and what not, and that is Okay. You can bear false witness, and no one should say anything. It really does show a great deal immaturity on your part, and I am not at all embarrassed for pointint it out. You are the one cutting people down by claiming that they are "idolizing Jews." I guess it's OK when you do it. I have not "cut you down," I have accurately estimated your behavior and called it what it is. I have not put down what you believe, but rather, it is your attitude I have come against, and your poor board ettiquette.

You are the one throwing around false charges and poisoning the well by attributing to our position, motives that we do not possess. Just so you know, accusing people of "idolizing the Jews" does not fall under "defending the faith." It is rude, untrue, and if it continues, I will report you to the moderators such underhanded blows. Those types of false accusations will not be tolerated,. Got it?????

[nanasimmons]

As for your calling me immuture, your the one who still needs to be under a schoolmaster.

Your too busy with endless geneologies and when the actual time was when Judaism became the name for people who adhere to Torah/Law, law keepers. I understand the reason of this blindness (Romans 11:25-32).

No, I just bother to do the research, and I know how to use the terminology properly. It amounts to caring about the enough to get my facts right. Something you ought to try some time.

I also know that Hebews was a pain staking and patience attempt to get Jewish believers to recognize the better way of Jesus and His superiority over everyone/everything including the law, since He mediates a superior covenant. Obviously a failed attempt for some,but certainly not on the writer or Authors end.

Yes it is a superior covenant, but that has no bearing on the Torah. It is still a sin to murder, it is still a sin to commit incest, it is still a sin to cheat, steal, lie, and whatever else the Bible calls sin. The Torah changed only in the area concerning the priesthood, according to the book of Hebrews. The Torah was not eradicated, and there is no biblical support for saying that it did. God made a New Covenant, not a New Torah.

It doesn't matter what/how I say things, you are always calling people studid,ignorant,ridiculous,immature. It a bully tactic

to upset people and make them rant and rave, causing them to look like they are the idiots for defending the truth......

Usually people cut others down to make themselves feel/look better....(as our mothers have always told us)

Oh I see, you can accuse people falsely of "idolizing the Jews" and what not, and that is Okay. You can bear false witness, and no one should say anything. It really does show a great deal immaturity on your part, and I am not at all embarrassed for pointint it out. You are the one cutting people down by claiming that they are "idolizing Jews." I guess it's OK when you do it. I have not "cut you down," I have accurately estimated your behavior and called it what it is. I have not put down what you believe, but rather, it is your attitude I have come against, and your poor board ettiquette.

You are the one throwing around false charges and poisoning the well by attributing to our position, motives that we do not possess. Just so you know, accusing people of "idolizing the Jews" does not fall under "defending the faith." It is rude, untrue, and if it continues, I will report you to the moderators such underhanded blows. Those types of false accusations will not be tolerated,. Got it?????

Obviously I've challanged you on scriptures you would rather not address..

As for accuseing me of false wittnessing , I never said any one was IDOLIZING the Jews I said that I do not and that Yod seemed bothered by it . On the other hand, others on this board continue to throw out intimitating words cutting down every one who doesn't use Jewish commentaries,writings and terminology.

Now you are using scare tactics as well just because you do not like the questions I have asked.( I Got it!!)

I have done nothing wrong except stand up in the face of adversity,so if you feel compelled to tell on me go ahead...If it's easier than addressing the issues that I have earnstly been trying bring fourth.

[Guest shiloh357]

Obviously I've challanged you on scriptures you would rather not address..

As for accuseing me of false wittnessing , I never said any one was IDOLIZING the Jews I said that I do not and that Yod seemed bothered by it . On the other hand, others on this board continue to throw out intimitating words cutting down every one who doesn't use Jewish commentaries,writings and terminology.

Now you are using scare tactics as well just because you do not like the questions I have asked.( I Got it!!)

I have done nothing wrong except stand up in the face of adversity,so if you feel compelled to tell on me go ahead...If it's easier than addressing the issues that I have earnstly been trying bring fourth.

I have addressed the very same issues several months back and all you did back then is respond with the same inflammatory, over-emotional responses. I simply don't see a reason rehash everything we covered before. I remember now why I stopped wasting my time trying to have intelligent, adult conversation with you.

The truth is, you do not understand a Torah positive position, and you are too busy tossing around emotional, inflammatory rhetoric to even bother to understand it.

Your remarks regarding idolizing the Jews were a direct attack on Yod as if he idolizes the Jews, and you feel is he is angry for you not following suit. The accusation is there, and anyone would take offense at it.

You needn't try to play the martyr. You don't deserve it. You have not been persecuted, so you can lose your fake persecution complex. You have been confronted by people who see things differently than you, and you pretend that it is "adversity." What a crock.

[Guest Theology_Professor]

God never changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday. It is still saturday.. Friday night to sat night.

It was changed by the Roman Catholics, in particular Constantine, who wanted nothing to do with the Jews and did this to be different than the Jews. That is also why Easter is celebrated rather than the original day that lines up with passover... not sometimes 3 weeks difference in time. It is also why we have Christmas and other "holidays" and ignore many other things God has said to do.

The sabbath was instituted in Genesis before there even was a Jewish people... so it is not a purely Jewish thing.

Many Christians want the 10 commandments, but they pick and choose even among those. God said to keep the sabbath day and keep it holy. It is disobedience to not. We are not in authority to pick the day either. You cannot choose "my sabbath will be Tuesday." This issue is not up to you.

[nanasimmons]

Obviously I've challanged you on scriptures you would rather not address..

As for accuseing me of false wittnessing , I never said any one was IDOLIZING the Jews I said that I do not and that Yod seemed bothered by it . On the other hand, others on this board continue to throw out intimitating words cutting down every one who doesn't use Jewish commentaries,writings and terminology.

Now you are using scare tactics as well just because you do not like the questions I have asked.( I Got it!!)

I have done nothing wrong except stand up in the face of adversity,so if you feel compelled to tell on me go ahead...If it's easier than addressing the issues that I have earnstly been trying bring fourth.

I have addressed the very same issues several months back and all you did back then is respond with the same inflammatory, over-emotional responses. I simply don't see a reason rehash everything we covered before. I remember now why I stopped wasting my time trying to have intelligent, adult conversation with you.

The truth is, you do not understand a Torah positive position, and you are too busy tossing around emotional, inflammatory rhetoric to even bother to understand it.

Your remarks regarding idolizing the Jews were a direct attack on Yod as if he idolizes the Jews, and you feel is he is angry for you not following suit. The accusation is there, and anyone would take offense at it.

You needn't try to play the martry. You don't deserve it. You have not been persecuted, so you can lose your fake persecution complex. You have been confronted by people who see things differently than you, and you pretend that it is "adversity." What a crock.

Why do you keep demonizing me??

It has been difficult to have a conversation about the Law and it's proper place in the Christians life, because you keep saying to those of us who rest in this position,that we are not Law possivitive or that we are preaching lawlessness...over and over,

No one has been saying that the Law is evil.

The Law is good if a man use it lawfully. There are alot of people who have studied and who read their Bibles who believe exactly the same way I do..And we get called stupid babies unable to learn(paraphased)

I guess this post is probably going end soon because who can learn anything under these conditions??

[other one]

God never changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday. It is still saturday.. Friday night to sat night.

It was changed by the Roman Catholics, in particular Constantine, who wanted nothing to do with the Jews and did this to be different than the Jews. That is also why Easter is celebrated rather than the original day that lines up with passover... not sometimes 3 weeks difference in time. It is also why we have Christmas and other "holidays" and ignore many other things God has said to do.

The sabbath was instituted in Genesis before there even was a Jewish people... so it is not a purely Jewish thing.

Many Christians want the 10 commandments, but they pick and choose even among those. God said to keep the sabbath day and keep it holy. It is disobedience to not. We are not in authority to pick the day either. You cannot choose "my sabbath will be Tuesday." This issue is not up to you.

Do you really keep the old testament sabbath?????

[Guest yod]

2 Cor. 3:6-11

Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament;not of the letter(what letter?),but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth,but the Spirit gives life.

OK nana...I'm going to keep trying because I believe that your are a sister who desires to seek God....

The "letter" is the written law, yes we agree on that, but this verse is not saying that the Law is now made "null & void". That interpretation would force a contradiction to many other verses of scripture.

So how can we make this harmonize with the context of the whole counsel of God? The answer is really easy. Let it say only what it actually says.

It says the the Spirit (of the law) is greater than the Letter (of the law).

No one here would disagree with that truth.

Our disagreement lies in the fact that you think because there is a "spirit of the law" that this means there must no longer be any "letter of the law".

This verse doesn't say that. It only says that the Spirit is greater.

Can you see that? Will you even try?

The "Letter of the Law" allows for a divorce if you find some "uncleaness" in your wife. The Spirit of the Law is that it must be a whole lot more than she served dinner on a dirty dish.

The letter of the law says we MUST rest from our labor from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The spirit of that law is fulfilled (made fuller) when we take the seventh day and dedicate it to the Lord combined with some kind of rest from our labors.

That is why I wouldn't have any criticism of someone who chooses to honor the Lord any way or any day that might be different from what I do. Heck, I wouldn't judge you if you didn't keep any day at all because that would be legalism(imposing a moral code on others)...but I might warn you about burning out because that is the "spirit" of why the Lord gave us a day of rest.

Christians are generally keeping the spirit of the Law by going to church one day out of seven...and that is an admission that the letter of the sabbath "law" is still true and in place. However, there is nothing wrong with obeying the "letter" of the law also by choosing to rest on a Saturday...as long as the spirit of the law is the ultimate motivation.

Do you disagree? If so...why?

But if the ministration of death,written and ingraved in stones,(what was written in what stones),was glorious,so that Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance: which glory was to be done away with:

How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministraition of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect,by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Paul is speaking of the greater glory of life in the Spirit for the jew who knows the law. I'd like to point out that you can find no place in the bible where Paul or anyone else says "you must now ignore the teachings and wisdom of the first 5 Book of the Bible" (The Torah)

Again, as I said earlier without acknowledgement from you, the law was never given to save us but to show us the standard of righteousness we would have to attain to be perfect. Yeshua spoke about how it was possible to keep the letter of the law but miss the spirit of it. In doing so, He made the full "letter of the law" even harder by now including the "spirit of the law" as it's ultimate definition.

Here is a passage from the great Sermon on the Mount where Yeshua expounds upon the concept. Notice that He states the letter of the law (you have heard it said) and then speak about what the spirit of that law is (But I say...).

He first makes it clear that He is NOT doing away with the letter of the law but interpreting it more fully. In other words, the "spirit" of the law is the purpose of every law.....but there can be no "spirit of the law" if there is no "letter of the law" to begin with.

17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,

24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God;

35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.

38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:

44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;

45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?

48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Paul refers to the Law as the "ministration of death" here because no one will be able to stand before God on their own works when they are judged by the perfect glory of the Law.

The new covenant is "new" and has exceeding glory to the Law because it provides a remedy for breaking that perfection which didn't exist beforehand.

I have answered your post as respectfully as possible. There is no reason to feel threatened just because we may disagree on anything/everything. I would appreciate it if your response was absent personal invective. I would like to believe that you are capable of that.

[nanasimmons]

2 Cor. 3:6-11

Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament;not of the letter(what letter?),but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth,but the Spirit gives life.

OK nana...I'm going to keep trying because I believe that your are a sister who desires to seek God....

The "letter" is the written law, yes we agree on that, but this verse is not saying that the Law is now made "null & void". That interpretation would force a contradiction to many other verses of scripture.

So how can we make this harmonize with the context of the whole counsel of God? The answer is really easy. Let it say only what it actually says.

It says the the Spirit (of the law) is greater than the Letter (of the law).

No one here would disagree with that truth.

Our disagreement lies in the fact that you think because there is a "spirit of the law" that this means there must no longer be any "letter of the law".

This verse doesn't say that. It only says that the Spirit is greater.

Can you see that? Will you even try?

The "Letter of the Law" allows for a divorce if you find some "uncleaness" in your wife. The Spirit of the Law is that it must be a whole lot more than she served dinner on a dirty dish.

The letter of the law says we MUST rest from our labor from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The spirit of that law is fulfilled (made fuller) when we take the seventh day and dedicate it to the Lord combined with some kind of rest from our labors.

That is why I wouldn't have any criticism of someone who chooses to honor the Lord any way or any day that might be different from what I do. Heck, I wouldn't judge you if you didn't keep any day at all because that would be legalism(imposing a moral code on others)...but I might warn you about burning out because that is the "spirit" of why the Lord gave us a day of rest.

Christians are generally keeping the spirit of the Law by going to church one day out of seven...and that is an admission that the letter of the sabbath "law" is still true and in place. However, there is nothing wrong with obeying the "letter" of the law also by choosing to rest on a Saturday...as long as the spirit of the law is the ultimate motivation.

Do you disagree? If so...why?

But if the ministration of death,written and ingraved in stones,(what was written in what stones),was glorious,so that Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance: which glory was to be done away with:

How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministraition of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect,by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Paul is speaking of the greater glory of life in the Spirit for the jew who knows the law. I'd like to point out that you can find no place in the bible where Paul or anyone else says "you must now ignore the teachings and wisdom of the first 5 Book of the Bible" (The Torah)

Again, as I said earlier without acknowledgement from you, the law was never given to save us but to show us the standard of righteousness we would have to attain to be perfect. Yeshua spoke about how it was possible to keep the letter of the law but miss the spirit of it. In doing so, He made the full "letter of the law" even harder by now including the "spirit of the law" as it's ultimate definition.

Here is a passage from the great Sermon on the Mount where Yeshua expounds upon the concept. Notice that He states the letter of the law (you have heard it said) and then speak about what the spirit of that law is (But I say...).

He first makes it clear that He is NOT doing away with the letter of the law but interpreting it more fully. In other words, the "spirit" of the law is the purpose of every law.....but there can be no "spirit of the law" if there is no "letter of the law" to begin with.

17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,

24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God;

35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.

38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:

44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;

45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?

48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

Paul refers to the Law as the "ministration of death" here because no one will be able to stand before God on their own works when they are judged by the perfect glory of the Law.

The new covenant is "new" and has exceeding glory to the Law because it provides a remedy for breaking that perfection which didn't exist beforehand.

I have answered your post as respectfully as possible. There is no reason to feel threatened just because we may disagree on anything/everything. I would appreciate it if your response was absent personal invective. I would like to believe that you are capable of that.

[Guest yod]

Does that mean you are speechless?