Man Disrupts Service

[ladypeartree]

pizzaguy I have been the wife in this type of situation, please if you can get her to get a restraining oreder on the man ..the daughter should also be able to get legal help to keep him away if she is frightened of him I am very aware that the law is different from country to country but without a legal restraining order he may well get away with this and a lot worse especially if he has friends in the police force as they would be in a position to protect him It is easy to keep him away from the church but what about outside the building...if he is prevented from getting to her there he may well become even more dangerous and attack her in her own home or at the daughters school etc ....here in Briatain the school would NOT be able to stop him from taking the child away even if she didnt want to go with him unless the mother has got a legal document to prove that he is not allowed near her.

Will be praying for the two of them

[Guest Biblicist]

Pizzaguy, [bTW that's the favorite person at our house. When the pizzaman comes we are all happy. ]

What about the Pastor counseling this man? Has the wife sought counseling for this relationship?

I think, maybe, the Pastor and a deacon should go to him and give him the opportunity to repent of his sins, and if he chooses not to, then take it before the church and have his name removed from the roll. This needs to be done Biblically.

Matthew 18: Correcting Another Believer

15

Edited November 14, 2006 by Biblicist

[Pizzaguy]

Our pastor is leaving next sunday - and he's NO leader. He was there, he didn't so much as talk to "Dick".

Jane came to the church for help, but Dick will have nothing to do with it.

No one has gone to him in a New Testament way - as the men of our church, from the pastor on down, are weak. And the church is weak, that's why this was allowed to go on for 20 mins without intervention.

(I should remind that, an offduty police officer was there and did talk to him, but that one man was alone.)

I am disgusted with my church, something like this happene din Michigan about 15 years ago and all the men INSTINCTIVLY knew enough to surround the guy and walk him out. This bunch is just weak.

[Guest Biblicist]

Our pastor is leaving next sunday - and he's NO leader. He was there, he didn't so much as talk to "Dick".

Jane came to the church for help, but Dick will have nothing to do with it.

No one has gone to him in a New Testament way - as the men of our church, from the pastor on down, are weak. And the church is weak, that's why this was allowed to go on for 20 mins without intervention.

(I should remind that, an offduty police officer was there and did talk to him, but that one man was alone.)

I am disgusted with my church, something like this happene din Michigan about 15 years ago and all the men INSTINCTIVLY knew enough to surround the guy and walk him out. This bunch is just weak.

Sounds like a pastor we once new. Sadly, we have had to leave churches that were weak as well. There are many out there. *sigh*

However, there are good churches that are willing and able to take care of matters Biblically. Sometimes it is better if you just leave and find a new one. If you want a church where the Pastor is willing to do Biblical counseling I'd suggest searching www.nanc.org for Biblical counseling Pastors and their churches. We have just such a church here. It's a fantastic outreach. Several of our members have gone through the NANC [National Association of Nouthetic Councelors] training to become counselors as well. On their website you can search by state.

Churches need strong pastors, if the pastor is weak how can the elders and congregation be strong? That strength comes from preaching The Word from the pulpit.

[Pizzaguy]

talking about punching him.......did he hit her? you didnt mention that...if he didnt...and they are having differences even to the point of cheating....that doesn't warrant punching him.......the only thing that would warrant that..would be if he was there to physically hurt her...otherwise ppl should stay out of it...religion is not going to help that scenario. with the one exception of asking them to take any diferences outside the fellowship hall. so....? did he try to hit her? well...if not,- why was everyone talking to punch him out? it's her husband and relationship. and his daughter.

He has hit no one that I know of. He was threatening, but not physical.

NO ONE was advocating hitting him.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Pizzaguy

[refugepsa91]

something that may help: Have members car pool with Jane and Hannah...pick her and her daughter up at home to bring them to church...get volunteers to do this and they can take turns giving them a ride...and this can---

1. Show support, Dick will see that Jane and Hannah are being watched and supported.

2. He won't see her car in the parking lot, hence maybe he will stay out of the church.

I know the absence of her car may not work for long, but in the meantime he (dick) will realize that the support of the church members is strong. And stalkers tend to not want witness's when it comes to comments they make...and if she is surrounded at all times he won't be able to. If he is calling her home she should also record every call...

I also like the advice of keeping detailed records on what is going on at the church...just a notepad with dates times and a short explanation will be enough if the church ever needs to explain why Dick is not allowed in.

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[Pizzaguy]

Terrific ideas, Angel.

[refugepsa91]

I'm going on the premise that the wife is afraid of him. Seems to reason if she is "afraid" then she has a reason to be. We may not know the reasons, this is where the pastor should come into this or one of the elder ladies in the church to find out why...

I stand by what I said, if the wife and daughter are afraid "truly afraid" of the man then they need to be watched and so does he, period.

We have another side of the coin here...its not only shame on 'them' if they keep the daughter away from her dad...we also have shame on 'them' if they ignore warning signals and someone gets hurt...

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[refugepsa91]

micen2,

seems to reason...also...that potentially this daughter is being told that her dad is going to hell bla bla bla...and that he is a bad man....that's her dad. As far as the wife being afraid that's just what she 's claiming...perhaps because she's in no state to deal with it all..and he may even have an insensitive and cynical attitude .....but it's still his daughter....and until someone sees that there is a physical danger there...then butt out.

I would hope no one is saying that to his daughter, I would agree it would not be right. As far the wife claiming she is afraid of him....I said myself an elder lady or the pastor need to speak with her privately about the whys. You have to remember if he is, this is only a supposition, dangerous I highly doubt he is going to be abusive in front of witness's.

shame on ppl who want to involve themselves so vehemently....because he's not a member of that particular cult.

yes cult....that's what kinda ppl rally and petition for lynchings against a man and his daughter...making him look even worse to an already confused child. shame.

Now this is uncalled for, accusing a church of being a cult?! You have no right to judge, you don't know what church, where, who is in charge, or statement of faith.

I don't care if the husband had an affair and isn't a christian, I agree that should not be the only reason they get involved, but if there is a chance, even a small one, that he may be abusive...shame on the ones who turn their backs and don't get involved.

my daughter of an "ex"- "thankgod" for that (ex)...(but with much sadness and regret to my daughter- mom and dad are a confusing picture for her)...tells me all the time.....ppl who take their kids out on holloween are going to satan....and all the while you see her wanting to ask..."why" ...I know she wants to dress up and go out begging for candy...and while I know it's origins...it's all "meat" to me....(from paul's saying on idols)....I don't see anything wrong with it...

also she tells me all the time ooooo youre going to hell....you said a bad word...

I ask her...do you really think so?

she looks confused as she exclaims...yea well you are bad...you said a bad thing...you're going to satan...she knows I'm not...but with the same twisted foreheads as hard as flint..(but still thankgod impresionable) as her religious mentors...she tells me what she thinks is her duty to exclaim..that I'm going to hell.

I absolutely despise this mentality...but with my daughjter we have the most wonderful conversations (because I let patience have it's work in that matter - knowing that she is impressionable and tiny yet)...without battling her "indoctrinations"...and she is learning that she can be herself...

My ex...has often made me out to be "the bad dad"... but in the end...I have a right to my daughter...and through patience ..she has come to see...that the ppl who say..bad things about daddy are worse than he. those slanderers and shameful accusers.

If you don't like someone that's fine...but to use children to define that validation of seperation...is the greatest , and most selfish sin on the planet.

It would be better if a millstone was cast about thier necks and that they were hurled into the sea...than to pit religiously warful demeanors in the minds of impresionable youth.

Ya know micen2, this is terrible, and the adults filling your childs mind with this, well one day it will all come back at them, for you will be known and remembered by your fruit, not comments your wife made. You have your daughter to come see you, children are not dense, the more she sees you the more she'll love you. And the time you spend together is what she will remember.

You have personal experience here that I think your basing your advice on. I also have personal experience close to this subject...and saying to ignore or not get involved when they 'may' be danger is bad advice. Obviously that is the mentality most of my peers took to heart, turn your back, don't get involved. It ended up very very bad....

If she can't explain why she is afraid, or if its just that she doesn't want to see him, and he's never threatened or physically harmed her or the child...then yepp the church needs to back off and its a matter for the courts...but I sure hope they try to find out first instead of turning their backs on anyone.

My advice, from my perspective.

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[Pizzaguy]

Some random (and hopefully helpful) thoughts:

1) My first reaction was to defend Dick, I am a man and it's my natural reaction: women can be hard to live with!

2) When I heard he left, I was sorry to hear it, and wanted to reach out.

3) When I heard that he'd been caught with another women TWICE before he left and moved right in with another women upon leaving Jane and Hannah - my support for him ended.

This is blatent adultery.

LOOK, if you cannot stand staying together, seek counseling and go ahead and (if you have to) move out. But don't fall into bed even before you are divorced.

One more thing: NO ONE HERE was there - I was. I THOUGH I made it clear that he came into a church service, disrupted things and intimidated those present.

The divorce may not be all his fault, but his credibility is shot, based on his public behavior over the past 5 months.

Jane had asked the church to pray for her and the family - but asked twice to NOT be put on the prayer list because she wanted it to be EASY for Dick to return to home AND church. But that attitude ended about 4 weeks ago - because of intimidation of Jane by some of Dick fellow deputies. (She was getting stopped by a sheriff car about once a week for stupid stuff. This was to let her know that Dick was in charge.)

I realize many of you didn't know some of this...