Baptism

[His son]

The issue is whether baptism or keeping commandments is necessary for salvation. You can love God and your neighbor and still mess up, we always do. Jesus did not say we will never sin or fall short. If it were possible to never break a commandment, then we would not need grace, and Jesus sacrifice was a waste of time. Even IF you could keep all 1,500 commandments for an indefinate period of time, it would not matter since your observance would still be tainted with your sin. All of us still have sin in our lives.

Jesus did not say we will never sin or fall short. [this is all your own understanding and exactly opposes what Jesus said]

John 14:12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(KJV)

One of those works was to be tempted in every way the same as we are, and in the garden He resisted unto the shedding of blood. Another of His works was to be baptised by John in order to fulfill Scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

His Son

[this is all your own understanding and exactly opposes what Jesus said]

John 14:12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(KJV)

One of those works was to be tempted in every way the same as we are, and in the garden He resisted unto the shedding of blood. Another of His works was to be baptised by John in order to fulfill Scripture.

I am speaking in line with the whole of revealed Scripture. I do not do as you do, and grab one verse by itself, take it out of its context and read my ideas into it. The verse you use was speaking exclusively about supernatural activities. It had nothing to do with baptism, or living a sinless life. You are reading that into the verse. The rest of the Bible teaches that we will continue to sin. If not, then most of the New Testament would not have needed to be written. The Word of God says the following about the issue

1 John 1:8-2:3

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. [2:1] My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [2] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. [3] And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

If you honestly believe that you do not have sin in your life, you are living in self-delusion, according to this passage. True, the goal is to not sin, and we are in the process of sanctification to that end. God, however, knows that we will sin, and he has provided us all that we need to deal with it. Nowhere in the Word of God does it say that as Christians still clothed in humanity, we will never sin. Jesus never said that, and neither did the Apostles. I am familiar with many verses that people will try to use to prove that we are expected to live sinlessly, or else we will go to Hell, and they are usually taken out of context, or they are presented at face value, and no true exegesis of such verses has taken place to glean the point that the author was really trying to make.

Another of His works was to be baptised by John in order to fulfill Scripture.

According to Jesus, it was to full ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. If you are going to use the Bible, at least TRY to get your references correct. It is hard to discuss scripture with people who are basing their theology on misquotations of Bible verses. Matthew 3:13-15

Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" [15] But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him. In his case, it was to be obdient pure and simple. Jesus did not need to be baptised for repentance, since he had nothing to repent of. Jesus was setting an example for us. That is a far cry from saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.

[endure4salvation]

The issue is whether baptism or keeping commandments is necessary for salvation. You can love God and your neighbor and still mess up, we always do. Jesus did not say we will never sin or fall short. If it were possible to never break a commandment, then we would not need grace, and Jesus sacrifice was a waste of time. Even IF you could keep all 1,500 commandments for an indefinate period of time, it would not matter since your observance would still be tainted with your sin. All of us still have sin in our lives.

1 John 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the vioctory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 John 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the vioctory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

For the umpteenth time, no one is saying that we should not keep His commandments. That has not been the point at all. It is the motives employed in their observance that is at issue. If you are depending on your observance of commandments to insure your place in Heaven, then you will have to observe them according to GOD's standards. Jesus is the only one who ever lived up to God's standards. You will have to observe EVERY commmandment that is written, and you will have to observe them with same sinlessness that Jesus observed them. God has only one standard of observance; and it is PERFECT observance. You cannot commit ONE sin, and you cannot omit one commandment. Since your salvation is secured and maintained, according to you, by keeping God's commandments, then if you sin once, or if you omit one of the 1,500 commandments, you have lost your salvation. You cannot put faith in Jesus and in commandment keeping. It is one or the other. Either you are saved because of you, and what you do, or you are saved by what Jesus did on the cross.

Notice what the verses following the one you quoted, say: 1 John 5:4-5

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. [5] And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is always faith that overcomes the world, not commandment keeping. Keeping God's commandments is important as it is a witness to the world of our Lord and His gospel. Our obedience is a testimony to the authenticity of our faith. When God is able to bless our obedience in the presence of sinners, He is glorified. However, when they see us living sinfully we cause God to be a reproach their eyes.

As related to baptism, it is a symbol much like the Lord's supper, or communion is a symbol. Just as the wine and bread are symbolic of Christ's death on the cross, baptism is symbolic of our inward regeneration. Titus says it this way: Titus 3:4-7

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, [5] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, [6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [7] that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. We are washed inwardly by the Holy Spirit, not by baptism. We are not saved by taking the Lord's supper, we simply in Jesus own words, "showing His death until He comes." We are likewise showing the world through baptism, that we have put our faith in Christ, we have "died" to the old life and have "risen" to walk in the newness of life.

[The Journey]

And soooooooooo

Jake just consider the next time you study through the passages that maybe the word baptism needs to be translated. Then use the word identify in those passages. Once you realize that Paul did not mean water your eyes will be opened to the Truth and you won't have to spend your days explaining away the vast numbers of verses that say salvation is by faith.

Sagz,

Trust me I know the Church of Christ mentality. I have debated some pretty high members within their organization. But that doesn't negate the very clear statement in Eph 2:8,9

- Steve

[Guest shiloh357]

Baptism

in Jesus' Name

Copyright