Questions about healing

[St. John]

Jesus Christ provided physical healing for you when he bore your sicknesses and carried your pains at Calvary.

St John,

So we are to have no pain on this Earth? Am I understaing you correctly brother?

Steve

Steve, I can see that you are not understanding Jesus substitutionary sacrifice. Does it say in Isaiah 53 that "by Jesus stripes we are healed"? It also says that "he bore or sickness and pain".

I have had both sickness and pain. But when I was healed the pain went, too.

Did Jesus take the sins of the world upon Himself? Did you repent of your sins? Then how come you can still sin? That is the same as your question "why is there still pain on this earth if Jesus bore it"

Jesus took the sins of the world unpon Himself. That does not mean that everyone is now saved. It means that if we do our part and repent and believe on Him, THEN we are saved.

If we do our part in healing, and believe and receive Jesus' sacrifice for our healing then we are healed. Jesus told the pharisees of his day "What is easier to say, "your sins be forgiven" or "take up your bed and walk" " It didn't matter which because sickness is the result of sin. There was no sickness before sin and there will be none after.

If you download the Healing for Windows program this and hundreds of other questions will be answered.

[St. John]

Objection: Jesus bore our sorrows and griefs, not our sicknesses and pains, on the cross

Good grief! Someone hasn't spent any time with a concordance.

Most Bibles published today have a margin note that the literal translations of the Hebrew words used for "sorrows" and "griefs" in Isaiah 53:4 are "sicknesses" and "pains." Therefore, the correct translation of that verse is, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses, and carried our pains."

This is an obvious conclusion to anyone who takes the time to study it out. It is not a way of trying to make this verse say something it does not say or rewrite the Bible.

You do not need a concordance to figure out that Isaiah 53:4 should be translated as shown above. Simply read Matthew 8:16-17! Do you suppose the Holy Spirit could interpret his prophecy correctly? Matthew plainly says that Isaiah said that Jesus "took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." The fulfillment of this prophecy is cited at an event where Jesus healed all that were sick! So there is absolutely no question that Isaiah was talking about illnesses here. "Healing" people of sorrows and griefs as we normally define them would not have been fulfilled by the healing of the sick.

In the case of griefs, it is utterly ridiculous to maintain that Jesus redeemed us from all forms of grief, because the Holy Spirit himself can be grieved, as shown by Ephesians 4:30: "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Peter tells us that we will have to endure grief, even after Jesus' atonement, in 1 Peter 2:19: "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully." Peter says a few verses later that you were healed, but he makes it clear that Jesus did not relieve you of all griefs in this life! Therefore, the word griefs in Isaiah 53:4 cannot refer to this kind of grief.

If you're convinced already that this objection is corny (and you should be), you can stop reading here. If you think you need more proof, here are some facts to save you some study time and/or the price of a good concordance:

Griefs defined

Let's look at the other places where the same Hebrew word (Strong's #2483) translated griefs in Isaiah 53:4 is used in the Old Testament:

"And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee." -- Deuteronomy 7:15.

"Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed." -- Deuteronomy 28:61.

"The son of the woman, the mistress of the house fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him" -- 1 Kings 17:17.

"And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover from this disease." -- 2 Kings 1:2.

"Shall I recover of this disease?" -- 2 Kings 8:8.

"Shall I recover of this disease?" -- 2 Kings 8:9.

"Now Elisha was fallen sick of the sickness whereof he died..." -- 2 Kings 13:14.

"And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians." -- 2 Chronicles 16:12.

"And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day...the LORD smote him with an incurable disease...his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness" -- 2 Chronicles 21:15, 18, 19.

"By the great force of my disease is my garment changed: it bindeth me about as the collar of my coat." -- Job 30:18.

"For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh." -- Psalm 38:7.

"The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness." -- Psalm 41:3.

"All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he hath much sorrow and wrath with his sickness." -- Ecclesiastes 5:17.

"And it is an evil disease" -- Ecclesiastes 6:2.

"Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment." -- Isaiah 1:5-6.

"The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness:" -- Isaiah 38:9.

"He will cut me off with pining sickness" -- Isaiah 38:12.

"When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound." -- Hosea 5:13.

Want more? Good! The Hebrew word translated griefs in Isaiah 53:4 is derived from another Hebrew word (Strong's #2470), which is translated sick in 34 verses in the Old Testament! Feel free to buy a concordance and look them up for yourself, as I think I have listed enough verses here to rest my case.

This is no attempt to rewrite the Bible, but simply an attempt to point out where the King James translators should have used clearer words to express what the Hebrew words were saying. My Reina-Valera Spanish Bible (a standard among Spanish-speakers), which was translated directly from the Hebrew and Greek, states explicitly in Isaiah 53:4 that he bore our sicknesses (enfermedades) and pains (dolores). This underscores the point that the no one is attempting to rewrite the original Hebrew.

Based on the other places in the Old Testament that the word is used, it is indisputable that Jesus bore our sicknesses at Calvary.

Many different words are translated grief outside of Isaiah 53. The word grief appears 22 times in the Old Testament outside of Isaiah 53. In only two of these cases is the same Hebrew word that Isaiah used in Isaiah 53:4 used to express the word grief:

"As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is in her; before me continually is grief and wounds." -- Jeremiah 6:7

"Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it." -- Jeremiah 10:13

Other Hebrew words are used to express emotional grief. The one in Isaiah 53:4 is the one used above to describe physical grief, and it is never used to describe purely emotional grief.

Sorrows defined

Now let's look at the other word, the one used for sorrows in Isaiah 53:4. This is Strong's Hebrew word #4341, which is also used in the verses below. In the interest of fairness, I have listed it everywhere I could find it, not just the places that might seem to help my case:

"If there be dearth in the land, if there be pestilence, if there be blasting, or mildew, locusts, or caterpillers; if their enemies besiege them in the cities of their land; whatsoever sore or whatsoever sickness there be: Then what prayer or what supplication soever shall be made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when every one shall know his own sore and his own grief..." -- 2 Chronicles 7:28-29.

"He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain" -- Job 33:19. (The second "pain" is actually implicit from the first and was added by the translators.)

"For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me" -- Psalm 38:17.

"For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded" -- Psalm 69:26.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" -- Ecclesiastes 1:18.

"All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased. Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity..." -- Jeremiah 30:14-15.

"Thou didst say, Woe is me now! for the LORD hath added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest." -- Jeremiah 45:3.

"Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed." -- Jeremiah 51:8.

"Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger" -- Lamentations 1:12.

"The LORD is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandment: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow: my virgins and my young men are gone into captivity" -- Lamentations 1:18.

Like the English word pain, this particular Hebrew word appears to be used to refer to both physical and emotional pain, as is clear from both uses in the verses shown above. This word is not as clear-cut as the word for griefs, which always means physical sickness in Scripture. I am not saying that the word used for sorrows

always means physical pain; I am simply proving that the word is in fact used to describe physical pain in some places and emotional pain in others.

Since it can go either way, which way should it be interpreted? Again, we must side with the Holy Spirit in translating it to refer to physical disease, as proved by Matthew 8:17. Also, this would be consistent with the context of bearing sicknesses, as proved by the word used for griefs a few words earlier.

See the discussion, Isaiah's Prophecy of Redemption for even more discussion of this topic.

[The Journey]

"Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from PAIN AND SUFFERING. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently."

I guess the Apostle Paul didn't get the "Healing for Windows" memo.

- Steve

[Catsmeow]

Steve: I think the Apostle Paul knew first-hand about pain and suffering, yet never litigated once, (LOL).

Why does a man like David Wilkerson lose his own little granddaughter to brain cancer? His wife was also horribly afflicted by cancer but with medical treatment, survived. So why?

Here is a godly man of faith - Why his wife? Why his granddaughter?

Then there's Hudson Taylor, well known missionary to China...who's little daughter also died from illness at the tender age of 14.

Then Job, who also suffered boils and other terrible afflictions...who was later healed.

Then there was the blind man who was born blind, not for his own sin or the sin of his parents, as the disciples assumed, but in order to demonstrate God's glory at that very moment in time.

God is sovereign. He rules. His will and his will alone determines the outcome.

I believe our focus should be more on, "Not my will but thine be done."

[St. John]

Steve: I think the Apostle Paul knew first-hand about pain and suffering, yet never litigated once, (LOL).

Why does a man like David Wilkerson lose his own little granddaughter to brain cancer? His wife was also horribly afflicted by cancer but with medical treatment, survived. So why?

Here is a godly man of faith - Why his wife? Why his granddaughter?

Then there's Hudson Taylor, well known missionary to China...who's little daughter also died from illness at the tender age of 14.

Then Job, who also suffered boils and other terrible afflictions...who was later healed.

Then there was the blind man who was born blind, not for his own sin or the sin of his parents, as the disciples assumed, but in order to demonstrate God's glory at that very moment in time.

God is sovereign. He rules. His will and his will alone determines the outcome.

I believe our focus should be more on, "Not my will but thine be done."

Some people choose to use human reasoning and life experiences in order to put God's word in prospective. That is what the 10 spies did-They gave an evil report. I stand with Joshua and Caleb and simply believe God's word. Therefor the promises in the word and answered prayer and healing work for me. That is all there is to it folks. You all could use the same child like faith.

[The Journey]

StJohn,

Did you not read the words of the Apostle? You just keep regurgitating the same old tired "faith healer" responses. Your like a broken Bob Tilton record.

Steve

[godrulz]

There is a Western, rationalistic worldview (Greek) and an Eastern spiritual, supernatural worldview (Hebraic). Unbelief vs faith will yield different outcomes (see gospel narratives of the ministry of Christ in different cities/individuals).

St. John and Journey may be arguing from the extremes...the truth is probably in the middle (God heals today, but not everyone/always....it is relational and complex, not formulaic..we are not immune to the effects of sin in a fallen world...we will be whole someday, and can have a foretaste now if God choses to intervene supernaturally for our good and His glory).

[St. John]

"Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse. All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from PAIN AND SUFFERING. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet, we must wait patiently and confidently."

I guess the Apostle Paul didn't get the "Healing for Windows" memo.

- Steve

I guess the Apostle Paul was wrong to heal the sick and raise the dead, because according to your THEOLOGY we all need to get sick and die in pain anyway.

The people are thronging Jesus and some men see a woman crawling on the ground. One says"what are you doing woman" and She says "If I could just touch the hem of His garment, I will be healed"

The other man says"don't waste your time, healing is not for everyone. Jesus couldn't even heal the folks in His own home town. And His disciples failed to heal a boy earlier. Jesus did it for them. Of course that time it must have been God's will for that boy. But it's not for all. You need a special revelation from God as to who He wills to heal and whom He wills to remain poor, sick dying and broke."

No different than our modern day "bible scholars", just totally missing the forest of healing for all of the trees.

And hey, her doctors were just as good as our M.D.'s today. She got to spend all her money and still remain sick.

[The Journey]

StJohn,

You miss the point of the miraculous healings by the Master and Paul.

"Do you think we can risk neglecting this latest message, this magnificent salvation? First of all, it was delivered in person by the Master, then accurately passed on to us by those who heard it from him. All the while God was validating it with gifts through the Holy Spirit, all sorts of signs and miracles, as he saw fit."Hebrews 2:3-4.

The Lord did not heal to make all of Palestine healthy, wealthy and wise. Paul did not heal to make the ealy Church healthy. God gave the miraculous gifts as signs to validate the new message. This was essential for the birth of the Church out of the Jewish synagogue.

godrulz,

Have you not read any of my posts? Let me state this again in bold and italics. GOD STILL HEALS TODAY!!! GOD STILL HEALS HIS PEOPLE TODAY!!! I completely agree with your comment. I am not arguing from an extreme. This is the Mere Christianity of history!!!

Steve

[The Journey]

And hey, her doctors were just as good as our M.D.'s today. She got to spend all her money and still remain sick.

ROFLOL!!! Hey that is my joke!!! You are stealing my material!!

Steve