The State of the Dead

[TomPJr]

There seems to be a lot of confusion and uncertainty among believers on this topic. I believe, through much prayerful study that I have a strong understanding of the subject and wish to show through scripture the basis for my conclusions.

This is important because it coincides with many other topics.

To be upfront, I do wish to debate anyone who disagrees. Who knows...maybe you'll convert me, or I'll convert you, or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. As long as were agreeable about it.

Joh 11:11 These things said hee, and after that, hee saith vnto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I goe, that I may awake him out of sleepe.

Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleepe, he shall doe well.

Joh 11:13 Howbeit Iesus spake of his death: but they thought that hee had spoken of taking of rest in sleepe.

Joh 11:14 Then saide Iesus vnto them plainly, Lazarus is dead:

(here is just one of many examples of how Jesus described death as a sleep)

Oops, I'm running out of time...

I'll state my beliefs, and back them up later...

Death is like a unconcious sleep without dreams.

When we die, our bodies return to the ground and the breath of life returns to God.

We cease to exist until the resurection.

(God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul.

body(dust) + Breath = soul------we are a soul, we don't have one)

We do not obtain immortality until Jesus returns and opens the graves of the righteous in the first resurection.

Those who are dead in christ shall arise incorruptable, and those who are alive in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

in short.... the dead are dead, they know nothing, and think nothing. to them, their next concious thought will be when they see Jesus at his coming. They do not notice the time that goes by. even those that died thousands of years ago. That is where the saying comes from "absent from the body, present with the Lord"

If I die today, in Christ, and Jesus doen't return for 500 years, my next conscious thought will be in 500 years when he comes, but it will be instantanious to me.

bye for now,

[Ovedya]

Technically this is a Doctrinal issue.

[Floatingaxe]

Death is like a unconcious sleep without dreams.

Death is swallowed up in victory. We who are in Christ do not die! We live forever! Our bodies may cease to live, but our spirits live forever...until we receive our new bodies at the resurrection moment! When I take my last breath I am going to slip out of this plane of existence into the glorious presence of the Lord. Hope to see you there. 500 years from now I will still be with Jesus! Amen!

As for my dead Christian friends and relatives? They couldn't care less what is happening to me here! They are too involved in Jesus!

[Guest stevej]

Death is like a unconcious sleep without dreams.

Death is swallowed up in victory. We who are in Christ do not die! We live forever! Our bodies may cease to live, but our spirits live forever...until we receive our new bodies at the resurrection moment! When I take my last breath I am going to slip out of this plane of existence into the glorious presence of the Lord. Hope to see you there. 500 years from now I will still be with Jesus! Amen!

As for my dead Christian friends and relatives? They couldn't care less what is happening to me here! They are too involved in Jesus!

I agree with Floating on this! I will be too busy worshipping and praising God! This for me goes to all of the guess work that people do about heaven. We know all we need to know about Heaven in the scriptures. Don't look for man's opinion..look at God's Word!

[JustinM]

Interesting points, but depressing as well. I'm not sure if my beliefs are inherent or if I picked them up in bible school, but I have always believed that when we die, our bodies stay here on earth until the resurrection, but that the saved will be brought up to Heaven upon death and fellowship with the Lord before He returns and brings everyone home and restores our bodies.

Do you remember the story of Lazarus, when He was in Heaven and the rich man was in Hell? The rich man could see Lazarus in Heaven, while he was suffering in Hell. I don't think there is a clearer definition of what happens to us when we die. But, maybe some Bible Scholars out there can help me out on this one.

[AnotherTraveler]

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Mark 2:24-27

24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Part of the problem that we have in discussing things that are beyond our natural earthly experience is the issue of time. Here on earth, time is measured, limited, yet it dominates our lives. By and through time here we grow, become more experienced, and eventually, as our time runs out, we die.

God lives in eternity, as does all the heavenly host, and though they are aware of the limits of time that must be played out for us, they are not bound by our limitations anymore. They are aware, conscious, and longing for the fulfillment of all things, yet they must allow for the time element to play itself out.

Revelation 6:9-11

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If they don't exist, why are they speaking, given white robes, and told to rest? When Jesus went to wake Lazarus, He said that he went to wake him from sleep (this is how most of us understand that we take rest).

On a related note, I knew an 88 year old maiden for Christ that had preached Jesus Christ all her life, and she had a strange story. She showed me a framed death certificate with her name on it. She told me of meeting loved ones that had gone on before her, and that Jesus had given her a short tour of heaven, and then He told her that she had to go back and finish her work, promising that the next time that she died she could stay there. Everything about her was very valid and she was one of the most disciplined and committed Christians that I have ever met, so I had no reason to disbelieve her story.

[TomPJr]

Interesting points, but depressing as well. I'm not sure if my beliefs are inherent or if I picked them up in bible school, but I have always believed that when we die, our bodies stay here on earth until the resurrection, but that the saved will be brought up to Heaven upon death and fellowship with the Lord before He returns and brings everyone home and restores our bodies.

Do you remember the story of Lazarus, when He was in Heaven and the rich man was in Hell? The rich man could see Lazarus in Heaven, while he was suffering in Hell. I don't think there is a clearer definition of what happens to us when we die. But, maybe some Bible Scholars out there can help me out on this one.

you are quoting a parrable which is symbolic and used to illustrate a point. I will explain more in another reply

[TomPJr]

Death is like a unconcious sleep without dreams.

Death is swallowed up in victory. We who are in Christ do not die! We live forever! Our bodies may cease to live, but our spirits live forever...until we receive our new bodies at the resurrection moment! When I take my last breath I am going to slip out of this plane of existence into the glorious presence of the Lord. Hope to see you there. 500 years from now I will still be with Jesus! Amen!

As for my dead Christian friends and relatives? They couldn't care less what is happening to me here! They are too involved in Jesus!

Floating axe...

I greatly respect your thoughts...I've been in much agreement on many of your other posts. However, the scripture plainly says that we do not recieve immortality untill Jesus returns....

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mysterie: we shall not all sleepe, but wee shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinckling of an eye, at the last trumpe, (for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortall must put on immortalitie.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

If we go directly to heaven, we would have already put on immortality. Make sense? but we do not recieve it until the resurection.

plus...I truly believe that Heaven will be awsome, but not if I know that my children are still going through hell on earth. What kind of heaven would that be? It's not biblical!

you also said that "we who are in christ do not die." do you mean that? Of corse we die, unless Jesus comes back first, or you are a special case and are translated like Enoch, then you will most certainly die.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed vnto men once to die, but after this the Iudgement

The bible describes death as a sleep over 50 times...Joh 11:11 These things said hee, and after that, hee saith vnto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I goe, that I may awake him out of sleepe.

Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleepe, he shall doe well.

Joh 11:13 Howbeit Iesus spake of his death: but they thought that hee had spoken of taking of rest in sleepe.

Joh 11:14 Then saide Iesus vnto them plainly, Lazarus is dead:

Don't you know that Lazarus was dead for a few days? If he went to heaven, why didn't he say anything at all about it? If you came back wouldn't you be very excited about telling everyone what Heaven is like? I think that he would probably be a little grieved also that he had to come back to earth. Don't you?

Jesus was dead for three days, and when he was resurected he said in Joh 20:17 ..."Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but goe to my brethren, and say vnto them, I ascend vnto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

Jesus was in the ground for three days, unconscious, dead sleeping untill he was resurected. then he ascended into heaven. this is an example of how we will ascend...it won't happen till the resurection on the last day, Martha knew this...look,...Joh 11:23 Iesus saith vnto her, Thy brother shall rise againe.

Joh 11:24 Martha sayeth vnto him, I know that he shall rise againe in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25 Iesus said vnto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: hee that beleeueth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he liue.

(she understood the state of the dead. If he was in heaven, which we just saw above that he is not, then why would Martha want him to be back?)

Act 2:34 For Dauid is not ascended into the heauens, but he saith himselfe, The Lord said vnto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord: neither any that go downe into silence.

(If you died and went direcly to heaven wouldn't you praise God?)

this brings up another point... Jesus said Rev 22:12 And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with mee, to giue euery man according as his worke shall be. (You do not get your reward of everlasting life until Jesus comes) is that clear? The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. we don't recieve it, however until Jesus returns with his reward.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the graue who shall giue thee thankes?

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

I hope this is clear,

with love,

your brother in Christ,

Tom

[EricH]

The bible describes death as a sleep over 50 times...Joh 11:11 These things said hee, and after that, hee saith vnto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I goe, that I may awake him out of sleepe.

Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleepe, he shall doe well.

Joh 11:13 Howbeit Iesus spake of his death: but they thought that hee had spoken of taking of rest in sleepe.

Joh 11:14 Then saide Iesus vnto them plainly, Lazarus is dead:

Don't you know that Lazarus was dead for a few days? If he went to heaven, why didn't he say anything at all about it? If you came back wouldn't you be very excited about telling everyone what Heaven is like? I think that he would probably be a little grieved also that he had to come back to earth. Don't you?

Jesus was dead for three days, and when he was resurected he said in Joh 20:17 ..."Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but goe to my brethren, and say vnto them, I ascend vnto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

Jesus was in the ground for three days, unconscious, dead sleeping untill he was resurected. then he ascended into heaven. this is an example of how we will ascend...it won't happen till the resurection on the last day, Martha knew this...look,...Joh 11:23 Iesus saith vnto her, Thy brother shall rise againe.

Joh 11:24 Martha sayeth vnto him, I know that he shall rise againe in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25 Iesus said vnto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: hee that beleeueth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he liue.

(she understood the state of the dead. If he was in heaven, which we just saw above that he is not, then why would Martha want him to be back?)

You are correct. The Bible does use "sleep" as a metaphor for death. However, just because something is described metaphorically, does not mean it takes on all of the attributes of the metaphor. Jesus did not say Lazarus' soul was asleep. He was using a well know OT metaphor for death.

Your argument regarding Lazarus' silence regarding being in heaven is just that, an argument from silence. One could posit many reasons for his silence. Or it might be that the bible simply does not report what he said. Arguments form silence prove nothing.

[EricH]

Floating axe...

I greatly respect your thoughts...I've been in much agreement on many of your other posts. However, the scripture plainly says that we do not recieve immortality untill Jesus returns....

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mysterie: we shall not all sleepe, but wee shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinckling of an eye, at the last trumpe, (for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortall must put on immortalitie.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall haue put on incorruption, & this mortall shall haue put on immortality, then shall be brought to passe the saying that is written, Death is swallowed vp in victorie.

If we go directly to heaven, we would have already put on immortality. Make sense? but we do not recieve it until the resurection.

plus...I truly believe that Heaven will be awsome, but not if I know that my children are still going through hell on earth. What kind of heaven would that be? It's not biblical!

You are correct. We will not put on the imperishable until the last trump. The imperishable is our ternal bodies. That does not mean however, that our sould are not existant and aware in God's presence. Also, Just because you cannot imagine something, does not mean it is not possible. The parable of Lazarus seems to contradict you here.