Taking Believers to court

[Guest stevej]

What if a Christian doctor [i use the term loosely] causes a person to have medical problems, and ultimately death, because of neglect or mal-practice? Do you just chalk it up to experience?

Forgiveness is one thing. Keeping that person from doing it to someone else is another.

There are human laws that need to be obeyed.

Sorry, I'm just speaking from experience here. I don't think that Christian professionals should be allowed to get away with things just because we are Christians and don't sue other Christians. It's a lame excuse. This is one of those issues that really upsets me. Can you tell?

Did not mean to upset you with my reply. I was only speaking to the one issue and did not make that clear. Money loaned and malpractice and so forth are completely different.

[Natt]

Now one more thing. This is not speaking of criminal justice. We are to turn in or surrender any evidence that we may have torwards anyone who breaks our criminal laws. Then those in authority can do their jobs that God has ordained.

So what is classified as criminal? I would have thought theft was criminal.

[stevehut]

You shouldn't take the matter before an atheist judge.

How do you know if your judge is an athiest?

Steve

[stevehut]

So if someone commits a serious crime (e.g. child abuse or rape) that should biblically stay within the church? This doesn't seem right to me.

Well, that is not a lawsuit. The injured does not bring the charges, the government does. And certainly a rapist deserves to be held accountable for his crimes.

Steve

[Guest Biblicist]

In such cases, as child abuse, rape or medical mal-practice. The government can not bring charges unless there is documented proof or there is some sort of evidence of a crime. Otherwise, the affected victim must bring charges.

No charges can be filed when it was a doctor "friend" who neglects to tell you of an ailment because "I don't do that surgery anymore". Or Maybe, "If your arthritic hands hurt, don't use your hands anymore and if it hurts to much take more Tylenol. Eight pills three times a day will do the trick. " No documented written proof is available. Only word against word.

So how do you bring charges against a Christian, when it is a situation like that. You don't. You just learn better. You just move on and never trust another doctor. And you watch your mother live in constant unbearable pain, using more and more, stronger, drugs every year because she blindly trusted a long time Christian friend.

You are very correct, freefromsin, we should be able to take the person before the church. However, when that person pracitally owns the church there is no Biblical recourse either. Again, word of one against word of another. It is really difficult to live with the anger at this person. Especially when I hear he has had a heart attack and I feel no sorrow at his pain. Only. . . dare I say it? Justice. That is a difficult thing to live with.

There are some in my famliy who take this verse way to far. They refused to press charges against a boy for child molestation because it would hurt their witness to the family. It is easy to take verses out of context of the Bible and use them for your own gain, or to avoid confrontation. Neither action is Biblical.

[Guest Biblicist]

Found these verses a second ago.

Matthew 5:25 "When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Same words in Luke 12:58

Thought it was interesting and pertinent.

Bib

[freedfromsin]

Now one more thing. This is not speaking of criminal justice. We are to turn in or surrender any evidence that we may have torwards anyone who breaks our criminal laws. Then those in authority can do their jobs that God has ordained.

So what is classified as criminal? I would have thought theft was criminal.

Theft is criminal. I diid try and turn my sisutation into the authorities, but because of how involved it was they turned a blind eye. As for recovering my lose I did as scripture commands and had to drop it and forgave him,,

[Natt]

I've noticed some crimes if left to the church they are hidden away public. The church usually wants to maintain church image. How many children have been abused in their care? Also the other problem I have with this in some crimes the accused often reoffends.

Should Christians put a convicted paediophile/rapist on the sex register?

Some could see it is as not showing full forgiveness. Other see it as it protecting potential victims.

Other crimes if forgiven the criminal moves on and doesn't repeat it.

Also if the world see the church hiding serious crimes from the public what does that say to them about Christianity?

[buckthesystem]

Let's look at it from a different angle. Many years ago, several good friends in the Lord, needed help for various reasons. Without going into detail, the amounts were pretty hefty. Because they were Christians there was no need for a contract, their word was good enough for me. In my state, a verbal agreement is still valid.

In any case, bottom line is the money was never returned, even after a couple of contacts about it. I had 2 choices. I could take them to court or I could chalk it up to experience and let it go. I choose the later but at least initially did not forgive them. The Lord convicted me of this and in the meantime i have forgiven those involved.

A lot of folks would say that the money should never have been loaned. I have no regrets now related to that and have no ill feeling toward anyone involved. God has blessed me far beyond what any man or government could do to me.

I think that particular passage out of Corinthians was telling us to be reasonable about things, try and work them out ourselves, without running to the police and courts or a government department every time some little dispute occurs.

I like to think I understand things pretty well, or as much as the next person anyway. But, having said that, I can be pretty naive and almost thick when it comes to realising things that should be obvious, too. I don't usually be deliberately offensive, but I just don't get hints and sometimes I don't realise that I have said or done the wrong thing (if it is a fairly trivial matter) until someone will come out and "spell it out". I guess if I can be like that, I assume others can be too.

We should have a reasonable amount of trust in other Christians and not over-react to situations.

Some members of our church had a problem a while ago with their neighbour's dog coming onto their property and being annoying (the neighbours were also members of the church and shared a driveway with them) and the dog was not "registered" with the local council. Anyway the family, instead of going to the neighbours and talking to them about the dog, rang up to the "dog control" and "potted them" for non-registration. The woman who made the telephone call was telling me about it and said "our neighbours are mad at us for 'dobbing them in' about their dog and are not speaking to us, and I think they are shifting house because of it". My reaction was "well, good job, I would be like that too. You deserve it for running to the 'dog control' officer". I thought the woman would be miffed at me for saying that and just not understand, but she just said "yeah, I suppose you're right".

The way I see it, you should never do something like that to somebody when you know that the only ones to profit from that situation will be the council or the government - or who ever gets the money from "fines" for having an "unregistered animal". We just cannot trust government sufficiently to handle it correctly and unfortunately their attitude is usually "how can we profit from this situation?". It is kind of like in a bad divorce situation when the parties know that the lawyers will be the only ones to profit, yet they spend massive amounts of money and risk losing everything to "get at" the other partner.

Disputes of such a nature should be settled within the church, and even monetary disputes (as in the one involving Stevej). What is the parable about the man who forgave his servant a debt and the servant didn't forgive others their debt to him in turn (I can't remember the details and don't have time to look it up - but maybe someone knows it).

I am a firm believer that if we handle things the right way, God will bless us in the end.

[Iryssa]

I agree that we need to use discernment in such situations. Rape is obviously a matter for the court. Arguments about a dog on the lawn, though, we can handle amongst ourselves. I think we should follow the formula described in Matthew 18:15-17 as much as possible.