Taking Believers to court

[buckthesystem]

Found these verses a second ago.

Matthew 5:25 "When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Same words in Luke 12:58

Thought it was interesting and pertinent.

Bib

I have always wondered about this one. How could anyone possibly "pay the last penny" if they were in prison?

This is saying (I interpret it that way anyway) that "handing someone over to the judge" is totally all about revenge, and nothing at all to do with justice. It certainly doesn't solve anything for anybody.

[stevehut]

"handing someone over to the judge" is totally all about revenge, and nothing at all to do with justice.

So people shouldn't be held accountable when they break their promises or don't pay their bills?

Steve

[Guest stevej]

Disputes of such a nature should be settled within the church, and even monetary disputes (as in the one involving Stevej). What is the parable about the man who forgave his servant a debt and the servant didn't forgive others their debt to him in turn (I can't remember the details and don't have time to look it up - but maybe someone knows it).

I am a firm believer that if we handle things the right way, God will bless us in the end.

Buck, just to clarify, the people involved are both friends and at the time we attended the same church. I can assure you i was not led by the Spirit to pursue this. The passage that immediately came to mind on your post was the one included in the Lord's prayer..."Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" (Steve paraphrase). How can we not forgive as great a forgiveness as we have been given through Christ?

[buckthesystem]

"handing someone over to the judge" is totally all about revenge, and nothing at all to do with justice.

So people shouldn't be held accountable when they break their promises or don't pay their bills?

Steve

Sure they should be held accountable. Just not "handed over to the judge". Because the modern equivalent of that is to letting a government department handle a dispute and the way they do it is to extract as much out of it for themselves and not actually do anything at all for the person who is owed the money.

Often, when this happens, the person who brakes their promises and doesn't pay their bills, is punished, and the one who has been promised to and is owed the money, is still left out of pocket.

I was just saying that I didn't see how anyone who was put in prison and therefore left with no way to earn money, was expected to "pay every penny". It is sort of like saying to someone "I've given you hundreds of lifts so you owe me, now drive me to the airport and I will take away your car until you do so, just to ensure that you have an incentive to drive me around".

Kinda self destructive, isn't it?

[Natt]

Found these verses a second ago.

Matthew 5:25 "When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Same words in Luke 12:58

Thought it was interesting and pertinent.

Bib

I have always wondered about this one. How could anyone possibly "pay the last penny" if they were in prison?

This is saying (I interpret it that way anyway) that "handing someone over to the judge" is totally all about revenge, and nothing at all to do with justice. It certainly doesn't solve anything for anybody.

So you don't believe in reporting anything to the police? What about the Capill incident, the vicar handed him over. You believe that was for revenge?

[freedfromsin]

I've noticed some crimes if left to the church they are hidden away public. The church usually wants to maintain church image. How many children have been abused in their care? Also the other problem I have with this in some crimes the accused often reoffends.

Should Christians put a convicted paediophile/rapist on the sex register?

Some could see it is as not showing full forgiveness. Other see it as it protecting potential victims.

Other crimes if forgiven the criminal moves on and doesn't repeat it.

Also if the world see the church hiding serious crimes from the public what does that say to them about Christianity?

hello Nat,

I think that you are confusing the scripture. The passage in question from the start was about getting personally reimbursed for a lose from another Christian due to their error.

However under the criminal code we have every responsibility to inform authorities of a crime. What you brought us about the RCC is simply a crime that they have perpetrated on society. It will not go unpunished, but we still are obligated to obey. What another does is not to have any bearing on what we do.

[stevehut]

1- Because the modern equivalent of that is to letting a government department handle a dispute

2- the way they do it is to extract as much out of it for themselves

3- I didn't see how anyone who was put in prison and therefore left with no way to earn money, was expected to "pay every penny".

1- Yeah, an impartial arbitrator. Terrible idea.

2- How do judges make money this way? When I won a lawsuit a few years ago, the other guy paid me, not the judge.

3- Ummm... Prison is not the only remedy available in courts today. Ever heard of garshishing wages? Attaching a bank account?

Steve

[freedfromsin]

3- I didn't see how anyone who was put in prison and therefore left with no way to earn money, was expected to "pay every penny".

That is the point! You cannot pay. That is the idea of hell. You go there and cannot evever get out.

[buckthesystem]

My reply in bold and italics:

1- Because the modern equivalent of that is to letting a government department handle a dispute

2- the way they do it is to extract as much out of it for themselves

3- I didn't see how anyone who was put in prison and therefore left with no way to earn money, was expected to "pay every penny".

1- Yeah, an impartial arbitrator. Terrible idea.

"believe me, there is nothing "impartial" about the "justice" system. Like Biblicist I have personal experience with this (not me, but my friend) and as a result, realise that anyone doing anything on behalf of the government is not in the least concerned about justice, but only concerned about getting as much as they can for their greedy master - the government.

2- How do judges make money this way? When I won a lawsuit a few years ago, the other guy paid me, not the judge.

It might be a little different in a civil case, but I am thinking about a scenario where (say) the government takes someone, or a company, to court for "non-compliance" with rules. The victim (if there is one) ends up with nothing or very little while the government wins big-time in fines. And yet, the government is hardly the "wronged party".

3- Ummm... Prison is not the only remedy available in courts today. Ever heard of garshishing wages? Attaching a bank account?

"Garnishing wages" is the most ridiculous term ever, it is plain and simple theft. It is ONLY done (in NZ anyway, I can't speak for anywhere else) to "recover" an alleged debt to government. So now I'll tell you why I'm so cynical about all this. My friend received a letter from her employer saying that her wages had been "garnished". This was the first she'd heard about "owing" anything, and was completely in the dark as to why. It is a good think her employer explained things to her, because the government department sure didn't. Inquiries revealed that she was being "charged" with not paying an alleged parking ticket in a town she'd never been to 14 years previous, and there were subsequent "court costs" and "interest" making a "parking ticket" for about $60 into a "debt" of thousands of dollars.

It took me (I did it for her as she's not particularly articulate) many hours of trying to talk reason to several civil servants, to "sort it out". She is a very easily-stressed person, and was incredibly upset for a while. Yet here's where the famous "we're not accountable for anything, and it might cause a lot of anguish but we're only 'doing our job'" came in. Yet these people call themselves the "Justice" department.

Steve

[stevehut]

"Garnishing wages" is the most ridiculous term ever, it is plain and simple theft. It is ONLY done (in NZ anyway, I can't speak for anywhere else) to "recover" an alleged debt to government. So now I'll tell you why I'm so cynical about all this. My friend received a letter from her employer saying that her wages had been "garnished". This was the first she'd heard about "owing" anything,

Well, that is not the case in USA. And I agree, garnishment should not be done without first making other attempts to collect.

Steve