Q#3 Why I think ID is not a scientific theory

[cjrose]

Wow. Horizon is still claiming that abiogenesis is part of Darwinian evolution? Looks like nothing's changed.

Keep it up Saturn.

No, and nothing will change between our beliefs as you forget you are on a Christian chat forum and interacting with Christians and some who are very wise and yet still are not without fault. But why not be a mature person and think about these little remarks before posting. Just post your facts, others will post their facts, no need for rolling eyes and sarcasm that cause bad feelings. I've been guilty of it too and am really trying to be a good example. May I suggest you also set a good example and be a man of integrity that I know you can be even if you are just a youngster at 21 I know you have a heart.

[SaturnV]

Thanks for the encouragement Runners.

No, and nothing will change between our beliefs as you forget you are on a Christian chat forum and interacting with Christians and some who are very wise and yet still are not without fault. But why not be a mature person and think about these little remarks before posting. Just post your facts, others will post their facts, no need for rolling eyes and sarcasm that cause bad feelings. I've been guilty of it too and am really trying to be a good example. May I suggest you also set a good example and be a man of integrity that I know you can be even if you are just a youngster at 21 I know you have a heart.

Hey man, leave us youngsters alone

[cjrose]

I can change the emoticons, CJ, but it's still very important that I point out abiogenesis is not part of Darwinian evolution. The fact this is a Christian forum does not mean we should tolerate lies about science and scientific theory.

SaturnV has done a very good job pointing these falsehood out.

If you are so adamant about what you think are the facts, why don't you find another place to argue them? I agree with you on the point about not tolerating lies but there in itself is an untruth in that many nonbelievers and athiests think that Christianity is a lie. What then should we do? Roll our eyes and pounce with sarcasm that causes a rise in our fallable human spirit in attempt to have you all see things our way just as you are doing in your attempt for us to see things your way.

All I know is that horizion isn't going to be around anymore because of this debate and it breaks my heart because he wise but like all of us sometimes impulsive.

It is an arguement that just isn't worth it.

[systemstrike_7]

I agree. I have always believed that the big bang happened to some extant, even when I was a Christian per say.

I don't know enough about evolution to say it is wrong or right, and I won't embarass myself in the attempt.

And I am a firm believer that God is not dependant on the validity of evolution. If evolution is correct (which we may never know), then it makes me think that whatever diety is out there, is a smart one. I mean, geez.....from what little I know about evolution, it seems to be an amazing process.

[cjrose]

If you are so adamant about what you think are the facts, why don't you find another place to argue them?

Haha, thanks for the suggestion.

I agree with you on the point about not tolerating lies but there in itself is an untruth in that many nonbelievers and athiests think that Christianity is a lie. What then should we do? Roll our eyes and pounce with sarcasm that causes a rise in our fallable human spirit in attempt to have you all see things our way just as you are doing in your attempt for us to see things your way.

The rift between belief and nonbelief is much, much bigger issue than this thread is discussing. It's good to step back and look at the big picture, but I'm wondering how you think this is relevant to creationsts' lies about Darwinism.

Believers don't have to reject scientific theory. That is why I think it's tragic when they do. There are plenty of Christian evolutionists, Christian Big Bang physicists, etc. I'm only saying this because I feel like you think creation vs. evolution represents a war between religion and secularism/atheism. It doesn't, and it shouldn't.

Forget Darwin, who by the way may have been a thinker, he found traditional instruction incredibly dull and discouraging and rebelled. His three years at Cambridge "my time was wasted, the work repugnant to me." What an ungrateful man I don't care if he was "Darwin" Here is a statement by him cited by Scientific Thinking "I have as much difficulty as ever in expressing myself clearly and concisely; and this difficulty has caused me a very great loss of time, but it has had the compensating advantage of forcing me to think long and intently about every sentence, and thus I have been led to see errors in reasoning and in my own observations or those of others."

You say on one hand creationists lie about Darwinism and on the other state that there are plenty of Christian evolutionists. It is inconcievable to me how a Christian can be an evolutionist and reject creation. It makes no sense. I'm not disagreeing with you that believers don't have to reject scientific theory but to claim to believe in our God, who is our Creator, and firmly stand behind evolution is contradiction. Show me a Christian Big Bang believer, and I'll take back my words. Then again there is a huge differential of interpretation of what a Christian is. So, that might not work either. And you are right, this is a much bigger issue but also calls for a time to step down since both sides are firm on their belief.

I do believe creation vs. evolution is parallel to religion vs. secularism/athiesm. Why have they refused to teach creation in schools if it isn't a representative of the belief in a "Creator" God?

[cjrose]

Forget Darwin, who by the way may have been a thinker, he found traditional instruction incredibly dull and discouraging and rebelled. His three years at Cambridge "my time was wasted, the work repugnant to me." What an ungrateful man I don't care if he was "Darwin" Here is a statement by him cited by Scientific Thinking "I have as much difficulty as ever in expressing myself clearly and concisely; and this difficulty has caused me a very great loss of time, but it has had the compensating advantage of forcing me to think long and intently about every sentence, and thus I have been led to see errors in reasoning and in my own observations or those of others."

I know all about Darwin. Now, should I assume you came across these passages while reading a biography about him or, say, surfing a creaitonist website? Before you "forget Darwin", cj, I would first encourage you to learn who he really is, maybe to read a biography about him, not just some quotes mined by creationists so bitter about his scientific success.

You say on one hand creationists lie about Darwinism and on the other state that there are plenty of Christian evolutionists. It is inconcievable to me how a Christian can be an evolutionist and reject creation. It makes no sense. I'm not disagreeing with you that believers don't have to reject scientific theory but to claim to believe in our God, who is our Creator, and firmly stand behind evolution is contradiction. Show me a Christian Big Bang believer, and I'll take back my words. Then again there is a huge differential of interpretation of what a Christian is. So, that might not work either. And you are right, this is a much bigger issue but also calls for a time to step down since both sides are firm on their belief.

Many passages of the Bible are interpreted figuratively rather than literally, as I'm sure you know. Christian evolutionists and Big Bang theorists take Genesis figuratively. It's that simple. For them, the 6-day creation could be as long as 14 billion years. You can debate whether or not they are Christian, but I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate it, and if they were here they would tell you, as a follower of Christ, they are.

As for evidence of Christian evolutionists, I'm hesitant to give you links to sites, given that the mods have been in a bad mood lately. Just look at the top three results in this Google search.

I do believe creation vs. evolution is parallel to religion vs. secularism/athiesm. Why have they refused to teach creation in schools if it isn't a representative of the belief in a "Creator" God?

Because it's illegal to teach religion in schools. Many Christians have tried pressing ID as a scientific theory, but school boards unanimously agree it's just religion in disguise. And some IDers have been honest enough to agree with them.

Makes sense. You so smart for a youngin' Seriously, what little I read about Darwin was not from any side of belief but these booklets I used for criminal justice courses regarding critical thinking, scientific thinking etc... miniture guides, plain and simple. One reason I don't read much that doesn't have to do with the word of God but I have learned. And you do have some valid points.

[billie]

Or just ignore them.

[Floatingaxe]

Or just ignore them.

Yep, after a few encounters, I realize that it's not up to me to prove who is lying. I already know who, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to do the convincing.

If no convicting or convincing is evident, I shake the dust off my feet, and move on to more fertile soil that God sends. It's good advice.

[Floatingaxe]

Or just ignore them.

Yep, after a few encounters, I realize tha tit's not up to me to prove who is lying. I already know who, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to do the convincing.

If you are called a liar, cheat or something even more heinious and you don't address the charges then you are allowing false witness by failure to act. And by not telling the truth you are taking part in that bearing of false witness. If it's up to the holy spirit to do the converting then what about the Xian duity to evangelize? Sould all the missionaries come home? And if you do believe in the duity of a Xian to evangelize then your reputation is important. And you wouldn't be able to fulfill that duity if your reputation was one of a man who was full of hot air. So unless you forsake the idea of a christlike life of spreading the word you need to make sure that people know that you're not a liar.

If no convicting or convincing is evident, I shake the dust off my feet, and move on to more fertile ground that God sends. It's good advice.

Take the easy path then...I'm not finding that passage.

Take the message from the parable of the Sower. God is the One who goes before us and prepares the soil. We are the ones who scatter the seed. If you are a wise sower, you know that you need to discover what soil is fertile and what soil is hard, and scatter your seed in the best possible place for harvest.

Of course we scatter our precious seed everywhere, but when we in wisdom determine that the ground is hard and unreceptive, we can't afford the time to cultivate it--that is the farmer's job--God. We should be looking elsewhere and move along, seeking soil that the farmer (God) has already prepared. Our time is precious, and so is God's. There are those who WILL not hear. Let's focus on those who WILL. It takes discernment, but God will give it to us, if we are sensitive and wanting to reach the lost for Jesus Christ. I wouldn't want to be caught spinning my wheels trying to convince a "path person" when there is a perfectly fertile soil waiting for me..appointed for me by God..or even someone with thorny or rocky soil that I can disciple and lead in the faith so as not to fall away.

Bottom line: we need to use wisdom.

[cjrose]

I agree with you on the point about not tolerating lies but there in itself is an untruth in that many nonbelievers and athiests think that Christianity is a lie. What then should we do? Roll our eyes and pounce with sarcasm that causes a rise in our fallable human spirit in attempt to have you all see things our way just as you are doing in your attempt for us to see things your way.

No, if somebody is calling you a liar then you prove them wrong.

The seeds have been planted and that is the important thing. Let me ask you this, how would you prove them wrong about Christianity? I've been interacting with non believers long enough to know they don't listen. Well, the majority anyway and have yet seen one come to Jesus. It isn't through proof which we all know is right before their eyes and they choose to deny it. It's their choice, their salvation. There comes a point of impass for the most part and then it's just mincing words.

So, how would you proove them wrong? Curious to your insight.