Unsaved

[Fiosh]

(true story)

I know a guy who sings in the church choir. He does volunteer work helping the older adults in his community. He's an older guy himself; happily married for over 50 years. A very kind, gentle, caring human being. He'd do anything to help you. I've talked to him many times about spiritual things.

He's agnostic.

My guess is that no one at his church would guess it. They all think he's "saved". Go figure?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well he wouldn't be in a choir in our church! You can't minister unless you demnstrate the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and are walking in Christ. It is the job of the Church to know, in order to keep the Church from becoming weak and ineffective.

It's your job now, Fiosh to let it be known to your leaders.

How would you know he was agnostic if he didn't tell you?

He exhibits (or seems to) several "fruits": love, joy, patience, kindness, generosity, gentleness. He is not a drunkard, a liar, an adulterer; in fact, he's a really nice guy.

How would you know???

That is why I said earlier that you need to be in a one-on-one with people. It's our job to associate with one another in the body. We are not lone rangers in the faith...we must be in relationship with each other to keep each other from getting off into error. It seems as if you were doing what we are supposed to do. Now what do you do with the truth of it? This man needs to be introduced to Christ. If he refuses Him, then he cannot serve.

So, are you saying that you can only know if someone is saved if you are in a close relationship with them?

This guy is baptized, and at one point in his life accepted Jesus. Now he's not so sure. The doubt happened gradually. At what point did he become unsaved?

[Floatingaxe]

(true story)

I know a guy who sings in the church choir. He does volunteer work helping the older adults in his community. He's an older guy himself; happily married for over 50 years. A very kind, gentle, caring human being. He'd do anything to help you. I've talked to him many times about spiritual things.

He's agnostic.

My guess is that no one at his church would guess it. They all think he's "saved". Go figure?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well he wouldn't be in a choir in our church! You can't minister unless you demnstrate the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and are walking in Christ. It is the job of the Church to know, in order to keep the Church from becoming weak and ineffective.

It's your job now, Fiosh to let it be known to your leaders.

He is a seeker drawn to the Truth. My job is to continue to minister to him and to try to bring him closer to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit working thru me. Maybe Jesus wants him in the choir to feed his soul.

If one is an unbeliever, then he shouldn't be in ministry. Choir members are not just singing songs! They are ministers of worship...an important calling. He needs to be removed and he needs to be given the gospel and the opportunity to embrace Jesus or reject Him. If he accepts Jesus, his role is to become a disciple as a new convert, and treated as one. Right now he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Will you warn the other sheep, and alert the shepherd?

[Fiosh]

(true story)

I know a guy who sings in the church choir. He does volunteer work helping the older adults in his community. He's an older guy himself; happily married for over 50 years. A very kind, gentle, caring human being. He'd do anything to help you. I've talked to him many times about spiritual things.

He's agnostic.

My guess is that no one at his church would guess it. They all think he's "saved". Go figure?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well he wouldn't be in a choir in our church! You can't minister unless you demnstrate the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and are walking in Christ. It is the job of the Church to know, in order to keep the Church from becoming weak and ineffective.

It's your job now, Fiosh to let it be known to your leaders.

He is a seeker drawn to the Truth. My job is to continue to minister to him and to try to bring him closer to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit working thru me. Maybe Jesus wants him in the choir to feed his soul.

If one is an unbeliever, then he shouldn't be in ministry. Choir members are not just singing songs! They are ministers of worship...an important calling. He needs to be removed and he needs to be given the gospel and the opportunity to embrace Jesus or reject Him. If he accepts Jesus, his role is to become a disciple as a new convert, and treated as one. Right now he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Will you warn the other sheep, and alert the shepherd?

I couldn't disagree with you more, Flo.

He is not a "wolf in sheep's clothing". He is not spreading lies or false doctrine.

He is more like Thomas, who said, "I'm having trouble believing all this without some kind of proof" . What did Jesus say to Thomas? Did He say, "Get away from me you wolf in sheep's clothing. The rest of you, throw Thomas out and stay away from him!" ?

No. Jesus said, "Place your hand in my side. Put your finger in the nail prints".

Jesus taught compassion for those who struggle to believe.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Floatingaxe]

(true story)

I know a guy who sings in the church choir. He does volunteer work helping the older adults in his community. He's an older guy himself; happily married for over 50 years. A very kind, gentle, caring human being. He'd do anything to help you. I've talked to him many times about spiritual things.

He's agnostic.

My guess is that no one at his church would guess it. They all think he's "saved". Go figure?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well he wouldn't be in a choir in our church! You can't minister unless you demnstrate the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and are walking in Christ. It is the job of the Church to know, in order to keep the Church from becoming weak and ineffective.

It's your job now, Fiosh to let it be known to your leaders.

He is a seeker drawn to the Truth. My job is to continue to minister to him and to try to bring him closer to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit working thru me. Maybe Jesus wants him in the choir to feed his soul.

If one is an unbeliever, then he shouldn't be in ministry. Choir members are not just singing songs! They are ministers of worship...an important calling. He needs to be removed and he needs to be given the gospel and the opportunity to embrace Jesus or reject Him. If he accepts Jesus, his role is to become a disciple as a new convert, and treated as one. Right now he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Will you warn the other sheep, and alert the shepherd?

I couldn't disagree with you more, Flo.

He is not a "wolf in sheep's clothing". He is not spreading lies or false doctrine.

He is more like Thomas, who said, "I'm having trouble believing all this without some kind of proof" . What did Jesus say to Thomas? Did He say, "Get away from me you wolf in sheep's clothing. The rest of you, throw Thomas out and stay away from him!" ?

No. Jesus said, "Place your hand in my side. Put your finger in the nail prints".

Jesus taught compassion for those who struggle to believe.

Peace,

Fiosh

He may not be actively trying to tear down, but he does not belong in ministry. It is the responsibility of the leadership to make sure that ministry is done by those qualified to do so. An unbeliever needs to be brought to repentance, and discipled. THEN, as he grows as a brother in Christ and demonstrates the knowledge of Christ in his life, he can request to be used in ministry, and be considered at that time. Too bad he was missed. He is not of the sheepfold yet, but is on the outside looking in. I call that a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Scarletprayers]

Where in the Bible does it say that the "choir" is a ministry????

[Floatingaxe]

Where in the Bible does it say that the "choir" is a ministry????

Of course it is. Anyone who ministers to the congregation, the Body of Christ in worship is performing a ministry. If you look at it in any other way, then you are looking at is as entertainment, which doesn't belong in God's House.

David wrote much music for the choir of the temple. It is a serious ministry as all are. Music in the church has major importance. Offering praise and worship to God is extremely important and as a choir member, you are considered a leader in worship. A pretty high calling, don't you think?

[Scarletprayers]

We don't have a choir, and we don't have music, we sing, all of us, all together. It is praise and worship of God even with out it. I personally feel the choir and musical instruments often times, becomes just what you said, entertainment, not always but sometimes, But it is not a ministry. So no, I don't think its a calling at all, much less a high one.

[Floatingaxe]

We don't have a choir, and we don't have music, we sing, all of us, all together. It is praise and worship of God even with out it. I personally feel the choir and musical instruments often times, becomes just what you said, entertainment, not always but sometimes, But it is not a ministry. So no, I don't think its a calling at all, much less a high one.

Leading worship, choir or other, is a ministry.

[Scarletprayers]

We don't have a choir, and we don't have music, we sing, all of us, all together. It is praise and worship of God even with out it. I personally feel the choir and musical instruments often times, becomes just what you said, entertainment, not always but sometimes, But it is not a ministry. So no, I don't think its a calling at all, much less a high one.

Leading worship, choir or other, is a ministry.

Yeah what ever. Scripture????? New Testament, since we aren't Jewish or in the Temple or priest.

[Fiosh]

(true story)

I know a guy who sings in the church choir. He does volunteer work helping the older adults in his community. He's an older guy himself; happily married for over 50 years. A very kind, gentle, caring human being. He'd do anything to help you. I've talked to him many times about spiritual things.

He's agnostic.

My guess is that no one at his church would guess it. They all think he's "saved". Go figure?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well he wouldn't be in a choir in our church! You can't minister unless you demnstrate the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and are walking in Christ. It is the job of the Church to know, in order to keep the Church from becoming weak and ineffective.

It's your job now, Fiosh to let it be known to your leaders.

He is a seeker drawn to the Truth. My job is to continue to minister to him and to try to bring him closer to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit working thru me. Maybe Jesus wants him in the choir to feed his soul.

If one is an unbeliever, then he shouldn't be in ministry. Choir members are not just singing songs! They are ministers of worship...an important calling. He needs to be removed and he needs to be given the gospel and the opportunity to embrace Jesus or reject Him. If he accepts Jesus, his role is to become a disciple as a new convert, and treated as one. Right now he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Will you warn the other sheep, and alert the shepherd?

I couldn't disagree with you more, Flo.

He is not a "wolf in sheep's clothing". He is not spreading lies or false doctrine.

He is more like Thomas, who said, "I'm having trouble believing all this without some kind of proof" . What did Jesus say to Thomas? Did He say, "Get away from me you wolf in sheep's clothing. The rest of you, throw Thomas out and stay away from him!" ?

No. Jesus said, "Place your hand in my side. Put your finger in the nail prints".

Jesus taught compassion for those who struggle to believe.

Peace,

Fiosh

He is not of the sheepfold yet, but is on the outside looking in. I call that a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You are way off base with this one, Flo. You are taking that description out of context and applying it incorrectly.

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away. Maybe this is the Holy Spirit's way of drawing him back. Who am I to interfere with that?

Besides, none of us is "qualified" for ministry. If we wait for everyone to have perfect faith the church would be empty.

" He said to them, "Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

I haven't seen anyone moving mountains lately. Guess we all have "little faith". Maybe my friend just owns up to it better?