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[Iryssa]

We don't have a choir, and we don't have music, we sing, all of us, all together. It is praise and worship of God even with out it. I personally feel the choir and musical instruments often times, becomes just what you said, entertainment, not always but sometimes, But it is not a ministry. So no, I don't think its a calling at all, much less a high one.

Leading worship, choir or other, is a ministry.

Yeah what ever. Scripture????? New Testament, since we aren't Jewish or in the Temple or priest.

First: just because we're A.D. Believers does not mean the OT is NOT applicable to us at all.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Tim. 3:16

Do you think he was talkign about the New Testament there? Absolutely not! At that point the Epistles, the Acts, the Gospels, and the Revelation were not organised into what we now call the New Testament.

Second:

I believe that having worship leaders is necessary in some churches to maintain orderly worship (which we see the importance of in 1 Cor. 14). churches today often have upwards of 600 people, many in the States have well over 1000. If there were no worship leader to lead them in song, trust me, everyone--especially those with little to no musical training-- would be confused and/or at a loss.

In a church like mine, with only 40 people, all we need is the organ or the piano to lead us...but that's because we can all hear the tune played on the piano clearly, and there are older people in the front rows who lead us in the hymns we younger ones don't know (though even at that, those are hard for those without musical training, and about half the people in the room are silent for at least the first three verses). We stll have a small choir, though, because people in the congregation are uplifted, encouraged, and edified by the music the choir sings. Edification and the strengthening of the church are important (Romans 14, Hebrews 3:13, 1 Cor. 14:26, etc.), so if having worship leaders and choirs contributes to that, what on earth or in heaven is WRONG with having worship leaders and choirs?

I've dedicated most of my new life to leading people in worship, encouraging them, and edifying them through the choir and Youth worship teams. All I've ever heard from people on the subject is how encouraged they were by it. Not ONCE have I ever heard someone say the church was adversely affected by having a worship leader and a choir. In fact, when the choir disbanded for a year (because we were suddenly without a pastor equipped to provide that ministry), people wrote response cards EVERY SUNDAY asking when it would be back until it was.

I noticed that you didn't provide any scripture to back up your claims either, Silentprayer. New Testament or otherwise. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to do the same.

[Floatingaxe]

We don't have a choir, and we don't have music, we sing, all of us, all together. It is praise and worship of God even with out it. I personally feel the choir and musical instruments often times, becomes just what you said, entertainment, not always but sometimes, But it is not a ministry. So no, I don't think its a calling at all, much less a high one.

Leading worship, choir or other, is a ministry.

Yeah what ever. Scripture????? New Testament, since we aren't Jewish or in the Temple or priest.

It is all through the Old Testament about musicians and singers. Read it for yourself. the OT is just as relevant for us today, as it is revealed there just how God views worship.

[Floatingaxe]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

[Fiosh]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

He is agnostic. He is also baptized----when he was a child.

[Floatingaxe]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

He is agnostic. He is also baptized----when he was a child.

So not baptized in the Holy Spirit, then...that is something different. What you are telling us is that this man is an unbeliever, and yet he is serving in a ministry position in your church. Your leaders need to be doing something about that.

[Zceiv]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

He is agnostic. He is also baptized----when he was a child.

So not baptized in the Holy Spirit, then...that is something different. what you are telling us is that this man is an unbeliever, and yet he is serving in a ministry position in your church. Your leaders need to be doing something about that.

Amen!

[Fiosh]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

He is agnostic. He is also baptized----when he was a child.

So not baptized in the Holy Spirit, then...that is something different. what you are telling us is that this man is an unbeliever, and yet he is serving in a ministry position in your church. Your leaders need to be doing something about that.

a. Yes, he was baptized in the Holy Spirit--"one Lord, one faith, and one baptism"---baptism is baptism.

b. The last thing you should do to a "seeker" is throw them out

c. Show me where it says in Scripture that an agnostic can't sing in the choir.

d. He doesn't belong to my church---but even if he did, I wouldn't feel the need to kick him off the choir

e. Do you know what "agnostic" means?

[TheVirtualBibleStudy]

In regards to making judgments about people, what do you think of the group out of Kansas that is going around demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers who have been killed in Iraq. They have signs that read: "God Hates America" and "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers". I've recently been in contact with them and wondered what you all think about their message and methods.

[Iryssa]

This man is baptized with the Holy Spirit.......then slid away.

You never said that. You said he revealed to you he was an agnostic.

Regarding faith: we don't need to have a lot of faith to be in ministry. We need to be in relationship with Jesus Christ to be in ministry. He is the one who equips us and sends us. If we have no relationship with Jesus, we cannot be in ministry. It would be a hobby!

He is agnostic. He is also baptized----when he was a child.

So not baptized in the Holy Spirit, then...that is something different. what you are telling us is that this man is an unbeliever, and yet he is serving in a ministry position in your church. Your leaders need to be doing something about that.

a. Yes, he was baptized in the Holy Spirit--"one Lord, one faith, and one baptism"---baptism is baptism.

b. The last thing you should do to a "seeker" is throw them out

c. Show me where it says in Scripture that an agnostic can't sing in the choir.

d. He doesn't belong to my church---but even if he did, I wouldn't feel the need to kick him off the choir

e. Do you know what "agnostic" means?

a) That's debateable...and I'm sure that debate rages on somewhere around here. The truth is that the Bible makes a distinciton between John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit...the semantics of what we call John's Baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit or anything else are always being debated. I maintain that TRUE baptism of the Holy Spirit requires REAL belief...otherwise I just call it dunking or sprinkling, depending on the method used.

b) This I agree with

c) I also agree that there's nowhere that says this in the Bible. HOWEVER, we need to exercise discernment and ask ourselves "why is this person in the choir?" If it's because they're REALLY seeking, then by all means, I'd say let 'em in...if there is evidence that it's just for getting free music lessons, then I'd say the person needs to be asked what they're doing there...not kicked off, just challenged to ask themselves that question, really.

d) I probably wouldn't either...for the most part...but I would challenge him to ask himself why he's there.

e)ag

[Iryssa]

In regards to making judgments about people, what do you think of the group out of Kansas that is going around demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers who have been killed in Iraq. They have signs that read: "God Hates America" and "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers". I've recently been in contact with them and wondered what you all think about their message and methods.

Hmm...what I think about their methods...

1. NOT doing a very good job of showing the love of God to people.

2. EXTREMELY and UNNECESSARILY offensive. It's a FUNERAL for crying out loud! Even if it wasn't a funeral people who DIED serving their country because of orders they were given, show some respect!

3. They need to get back to their Bibles to learn how to love, because "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10