Deity of Jesus

[George]

Guidelines for the discussion!

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

2) Time to reply will not be a consideration. However, please be considerate enough to at least try to reply in a timely manner, or otherwise concede the discussion.

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4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

[Enquirer]

Guidelines for the discussion!

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

2) Time to reply will not be a consideration. However, please be considerate enough to at least try to reply in a timely manner, or otherwise concede the discussion.

3) This is not a "win/lose" discussion. The nature of a debate is to argue your points clearly and to the best of your ability. Nobody is right or wrong. Even though you may use the words "right" and "wrong" in the process of disputing a point, the purpose of debate is to get your point across, and support that point with evidence. It is up to the reader to decide who's argument is more weighty.

4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

"Deity of Jesus" - has a nice sound to it doesn't it? But is it scriptural? Remains to be seen, or demonstrated.

Let me begin by pointing out that the story of Jesus does not begin at John 1:1, nor does it begin anywhere near John's writings, but actually begins 66 books earlier, with Gen 3:15, which tells us that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent. This is the first prophecy with promise, and the beginning of the "Jesus controversy." Jesus by this prophecy, predates Abraham in accordance with John 8:58, "Before Abraham became, I am." It is also in keeping with I Cor 15:45-46, in which is stated, "And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards, that which is spiritual."

So John correctly instructs us that Jesus predates Abraham IN SOME FASHION, (Prophecy); and Paul tells us Adam predated Jesus in some fashion, dealing with "protwn," an ordinal adverb pointing out things that are first, or in order of protocol. John the Baptist further adds to the concept by bearing witness of him, saying, "This is he of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, before me has become." [John 1:15,30] John is pointing out what Moses said in Gen, and Paul said in

I Corinthians, that Adam was first, then John the baptist, then Jesus, the latter becoming "before" John in importance or stature.

God tells us in Psalm 86:10 "Thou art the monos (only) and the great God." Isaiah tells us [37:16] O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, who sittest upon the cherubs, thou ALONE (monos) art the God of every kingdom of the world: thou hast made heaven and earth." "Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven monos (alone), and established the earth." [isa 44:24];"

Jesus also tells us something that adds to the evidence. ""I am not alone, (ouk monos), because the father is with me." [John 16:32].

While Jehovah points out that he created all things monos (alone) Jesus tells us that when he and the father are together, they are "ouk monos (NOT ALONE.)

IF Jesus is deity, beyond being a FORM OF deity, then who is he? He is not Jehovah, he is not the Father, he is not prior to Adam, he is "before Abraham" but only in Prophecy, and he is after John in actuallity. Jesus, being a "form of God," cannot be God of whom he is a form.

[Guest shiloh357]

Deity of Jesus" - has a nice sound to it doesn't it? But is it scriptural? Remains to be seen, or demonstrated.

Let me begin by pointing out that the story of Jesus does not begin at John 1:1, nor does it begin anywhere near John's writings, but actually begins 66 books earlier, with Gen 3:15, which tells us that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent. This is the first prophecy with promise, and the beginning of the "Jesus controversy." Jesus by this prophecy, predates Abraham in accordance with John 8:58, "Before Abraham became, I am." It is also in keeping with I Cor 15:45-46, in which is stated, "And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards, that which is spiritual."

So John correctly instructs us that Jesus predates Abraham IN SOME FASHION, (Prophecy); and Paul tells us Adam predated Jesus in some fashion, dealing with "protwn," an ordinal adverb pointing out things that are first, or in order of protocol. John the Baptist further adds to the concept by bearing witness of him, saying, "This is he of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, before me has become." [John 1:15,30] John is pointing out what Moses said in Gen, and Paul said in

I Corinthians, that Adam was first, then John the baptist, then Jesus, the latter becoming "before" John in importance or stature.

From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes.

So how much stock can we put in the above author

[Enquirer]

Deity of Jesus" - has a nice sound to it doesn't it? But is it scriptural? Remains to be seen, or demonstrated.

Let me begin by pointing out that the story of Jesus does not begin at John 1:1, nor does it begin anywhere near John's writings, but actually begins 66 books earlier, with Gen 3:15, which tells us that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent. This is the first prophecy with promise, and the beginning of the "Jesus controversy." Jesus by this prophecy, predates Abraham in accordance with John 8:58, "Before Abraham became, I am." It is also in keeping with I Cor 15:45-46, in which is stated, "And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards, that which is spiritual."

So John correctly instructs us that Jesus predates Abraham IN SOME FASHION, (Prophecy); and Paul tells us Adam predated Jesus in some fashion, dealing with "protwn," an ordinal adverb pointing out things that are first, or in order of protocol. John the Baptist further adds to the concept by bearing witness of him, saying, "This is he of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, before me has become." [John 1:15,30] John is pointing out what Moses said in Gen, and Paul said in

I Corinthians, that Adam was first, then John the baptist, then Jesus, the latter becoming "before" John in importance or stature.

From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes.

Wrong. That is not my claim. ALL the bible characters predate Jesus all the way to and including his cousin John, EXCEPT Jesus predates them in prophecy, as the first object of prophecy in Gen 3:15. This includes also the minor figures of scripture.

So how much stock can we put in the above author

Edited January 19, 2007 by Matthitjah

[Guest shiloh357]

From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes.

Wrong. That is not my claim. ALL the bible characters predate Jesus all the way to and including his cousin John, EXCEPT Jesus predates them in prophecy, as the first object of prophecy in Gen 3:15. This includes also the minor figures of scripture.

Well it is a minor point, and I suppose not worth laboring over, but if the

[Guest shiloh357]

Part Two of my Response

Not what I have in my source material.

2088 / 8034 / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [23:6]

2088 / .... / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [33:16]

The ONLY difference is the use of Strong's 8034 in 23:6 [shem] which references a definite and auspicious position; an appelation, as a mark or memorial of individuallity by implying honor, authority, character. [strong]

And why is this applied to the branch and not to Jerusalem? Because God had already so honored both the people [Num 6:22-27] and the city by placeing his name in the land of Israel, [Deu 12:3-11;; and in Jerusalem [i Kings 8:29][i Kings 9:3][iI Kings 21:4], the city of God. It did not need to be placed there again.

The first phrase refers to a name; hence, the presence of the word shmo. "He shall be named" (Jeremiah 23:16) In Jeremiah 33:16, the wording is different,

DIFFERENT HOW?

2088 / 8034 / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [23:6]

2088 / .... / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [33:16]

The ONLY difference is the use of Strong's 8034 in 23:6 [shem] which references a definite and auspicious position; an appelation, as a mark or memorial of individuallity by implying honor, authority, character. [strong]

And why is this applied to the branch and not to Jerusalem? Because God had already so honored both the people [Num 6:22-27] and the city by placeing his name in the land of Israel, [Deu 12:3-11;; and in Jerusalem [i Kings 8:29][i Kings 9:3][iI Kings 21:4], the city of God. It did not need to be placed there again.

Well, my source material is the Hebrew language. You are relying on Strong

[Guest shiloh357]

Part Three of My Response

Now, back to John chapter 8. My opponent claims that in John 8:58, that Jesus was only claiming to predate Abraham, and then only in the sense of OT prophecy. My opponent claims that this is what Jesus meant, and not that Jesus preexisted Abraham as a living person, and certainly NOT as the Divine creator of the universe. But in light of what we have seen thus far, does that

[Enquirer]

Part I

(1)To Shiloh357's remark: " From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes."

Enquirer responded: "Wrong. That is not my claim. ALL the bible characters predate Jesus all the way to and including his cousin John, EXCEPT Jesus predates them in prophecy, as the first object of prophecy in Gen 3:15. This includes also the minor figures of scripture."

To which Shiloh357 responded: "Well it is a minor point, and I suppose not worth laboring over, but if the

[Enquirer]

PART II

(3) To Shiloh357's remark: "So how much stock can we put in the above author

Edited January 20, 2007 by Enquirer

[Enquirer]

PART III

(3) To Shiloh357's remark: "So how much stock can we put in the above author

Edited January 20, 2007 by Enquirer