Once saved always saved?

[nicholas]

Shad,

My appology for thinking you were an adult. I'll dumb it down next time we speak. I also wish you were speaking to my face. It might bring back your manners.

nicholas

[Guest shadow2b]

-Shad,

My appology for thinking you were an adult. I'll dumb it down next time we speak. I also wish you were speaking to my face. It might bring back your manners.

nicholas

-APOLOGY ACCEPTED NICK---ahhhhhh--thank you so much--well things do have to be "simple" for

-those of us that are "simple minded"enough to understand the "simplicity" in CHRIST-----

-2nd.corin.11.vs.3--------

-But I fear,lest by any means,as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,so your minds

-should be corrupted from the "simplicity" that is in CHRIST........

-WeLL nick you've expressed a great desire to speak face to face & I gave you directions to my

-house,soooo-come on over-my poor hearts just a jumpin like a man on a fuzzy tree-----

-a line from a early song by ELVIS---ALL shook up-----greatly anticipating your arrival---It will be the

-very first time I will be meeting face-to-face-a shonuff real catholic "brethren"I'LL be the one waiting on the porch

[Guest Benny]

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). However, that's not all. Sacred Scripture clearly shows other things you must also do to be saved:

You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.

You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.

You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.

You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9.

You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21.

You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.

You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29.

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to His call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. CCC 1996, John 1:12-18, John 17:3, Romans 8:14-17, 2 Peter 1:3-4.

The only Church that meets all the requirements of Salvation is the Holy Catholic Church.

Well Nicholas, I was not going to do this but since you brought it up. By your own requirements.

"You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21."

Lets start with this one:

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

I believe that would include statues or graven images of Jesus and the Virgin Mary seeing that Jesus is in heaven and the commandment forbids it.

That brings us to another point. Why are you taught to pray to the Virgin Mary? Because you are taught that she is a mediator between you and God. That is a contradiction of scripture.

I Timothy 2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

While Mary was a good woman before God, she was just a woman. She is not a mediator between God and man as the scripture just quoted makes quite clear. Thus praying to her, or more spacificly to her statues as well as other saints statues, are also a violation of the second commandment as well.

I assume the commandments of Christ are also considered commandments of God.

8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

To call a priest father would violate this commandment.

The catholic religion also teaches that only the pope could designate who was a saint and who wasn

[Guest Benny]

Now to address the title of this thread. "Once saved always saved." That premis is not biblical scriptural. There is a difference in making mistakes or sinning out of ignorance and intentionally doing something Jesus commanded not to do. The letters to the churches of Asia in Revelations were addressing born again Christians yet most of them were given very explicit warnings by Christ that if they did not change there ways they would be lost.

Hebrews 10

26: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I Peter 4

17: For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Mathew 7

13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mathew 5

44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

II Corinthians 13

9: For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

10: Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

11: Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

[nicholas]

Benny,

i believe most of what you say, because most of it is scripture and i believe in all scripture. As for some of your interpretations I disagree. ya see this is the problem with self interpreting scripture everyone ends up with there own interpretaion.

Catholics do not pray to wood or images.

Do you have any pictures of family members in your house?

Do you not look at them with love and great memories?

That is the same as looking at an image of Christ to remind us of his love?

Is having a cross wrong?

All men have a father and a mother. Maybe you have never called your earthly father "father" for fear of offending God, but calling your dad father is not violating scripture. To say that I believe takes it out of context to what Christ was teaching his Apostles. Christ never meant don't use the word father unless speaking of me. Remember Honor your Father and Mother. There are many times in the bible that the Apostles use the word father and are not speaking of God. Were they disobedient? How can scripture be disobedient.

Thank you for your intelligent post. I appreciate good debate. Which is little of what I have recieved tonight.

Nicholas

[irishcowboy]

sorry, but as was said before,

GOD did not direct the placement of statues of people ( Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Paul, Michael, Peter, or any other of the saints, even Christopher ) to be made.......

GOD DID direct the building of the ARK of the Covenent....

God did direct the craftsmanship of the staff with the serpant.....

God did direct the use of the staff and the Ark.....

GOD DID NOT direct us to have the statues, nor did He direct us to use them.......

by assuming that because God directed certain things to be manufactured, did not give license to go and start building statues of people and other things ( angels ) on our own.....

to do so, would be like me hiring a man or woman to work for me in this company, and giving them a task of going and rebuilding a stool in a rental property, and when they get back with the work order, the stool may or may not have been rebuilt, but, they have also gone and changed out the water filters, and replaced the water heater and changed out a faucet with out consulting me and the owner..... with out the owner of the property, and myself authorizing it, that serviceperson, just lost money on that, for the cost of the water heater and the faucet and the water filter will come out of his pocket, not the tenants, or the owner of the property......

so, who Authorized the creation of the statues of the saints? who is condoning it? those are the ones that will have to pay the price of their placement......

the Cheribium that were made for the Ark, were part of Gods earthly throne, ( the MERCY SEAT )..... what part do the other statues have to play in Gods Court?

the Staff, was for the benefit of the Children of Israel, for their protection and health against snake bite.... a simular emblem is still used in the medical field to signify some one as a physician......

who consulted God to see if they was "AUTHORIZED" to make statues of the apostles, of Mary and Jesus? Who Authorized it???

they are a far cry from pictures in the house....

they are a far cry from washing some ones feet.....

as far as the term Father being used for a persons parents, that is one thing, but to place another man in a position to be called father, ( speaking of the priest )....

for the most part, some catholic congregations have quit using the term father for the priest, but it is still used in others.....

*************

Benny,

all of what you have said here, has already been said, time and time again, like talking to a brick wall....

we also know there is a differance between living under the penalties (or condemnation ) of the law and living under the Grace of God...

mike

[nicholas]

MIke,

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one

[Guest Benny]

sorry, but as was said before,

GOD did not direct the placement of statues of people ( Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Paul, Michael, Peter, or any other of the saints, even Christopher ) to be made.......

GOD DID direct the building of the ARK of the Covenent....

God did direct the craftsmanship of the staff with the serpant.....

God did direct the use of the staff and the Ark.....

GOD DID NOT direct us to have the statues, nor did He direct us to use them.......

by assuming that because God directed certain things to be manufactured, did not give license to go and start building statues of people and other things ( angels ) on our own.....

to do so, would be like me hiring a man or woman to work for me in this company, and giving them a task of going and rebuilding a stool in a rental property, and when they get back with the work order, the stool may or may not have been rebuilt, but, they have also gone and changed out the water filters, and replaced the water heater and changed out a faucet with out consulting me and the owner..... with out the owner of the property, and myself authorizing it, that serviceperson, just lost money on that, for the cost of the water heater and the faucet and the water filter will come out of his pocket, not the tenants, or the owner of the property......

so, who Authorized the creation of the statues of the saints? who is condoning it? those are the ones that will have to pay the price of their placement......

the Cheribium that were made for the Ark, were part of Gods earthly throne, ( the MERCY SEAT )..... what part do the other statues have to play in Gods Court?

the Staff, was for the benefit of the Children of Israel, for their protection and health against snake bite.... a simular emblem is still used in the medical field to signify some one as a physician......

who consulted God to see if they was "AUTHORIZED" to make statues of the apostles, of Mary and Jesus? Who Authorized it???

they are a far cry from pictures in the house....

they are a far cry from washing some ones feet.....

as far as the term Father being used for a persons parents, that is one thing, but to place another man in a position to be called father, ( speaking of the priest )....

for the most part, some catholic congregations have quit using the term father for the priest, but it is still used in others.....

*************

Benny,

all of what you have said here, has already been said, time and time again, like talking to a brick wall....

we also know there is a differance between living under the penalties (or condemnation ) of the law and living under the Grace of God...

mike

If that means that you think its OK to commit willful sin after becoming a Christian. You do not understand what Paul was saying. And you are not doing what Jesus said to do and that would exclude you from grace. As those, and other scriptures very clearly state. Jesus never gave his OK to sin just because we are covered by the blood. That washing away of our sins is for past sins. Jesus said "Your sins are foregiven, go and sin no more."

To sin after recieving the grace puts you right back where you started, under sin and under the Law.

[mobile21]

Mike and Nicholas are wrong

Before Jesus came to the world, ALL human beings from ALL religions went to either hell -if they were wicked- or purgatory -if they were good- (Moses, Abraham and so on went to purgatory of course).

Only after Jesus came, the gates of heaven opened for the entire mankind and now all good people can enter heaven including the good jews and buddhists and muslims. This also means that all evil jews and muslims and christians go straight to hell (yes, for your satisfaction there are the evil catholic crusaders and the evil catholic members of the Inquisition).

How could evil christians go to heaven while good jews go to hell???? Did the christian nazis went to heaven while the people in the concentration camps to hell?.

That's nonsense and the most important thing is that it is not true.

Seems to me that everyone in here forgot about Jesus's commandment:

"The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:31).

This means if a muslim does evil to other muslim he shall go to hell because he's being evil to Christ Himself, and guess what, this is perfectly consistent with the words Jesus will pronounce the day of the Universal Judgement (Matt 25:41-46).

[nicholas]

Mobile,

I do not uderstand what you say I'm wrong about. Please clarify, I have spoken on many topics on this thread they are all running together now.

Nicholas