Are we really asking questions...

[systemstrike_7]

I see this as a kind of Catch 22. If God exists, he would do so even without the Bible. On the other hand, the Bible is the only means of 'proving' that God exists in the first place, so without the Bible, there's no reason to believe he exists, even if he does.

But then again, my belief has been for some time that if there is an all-powerful deity/s, it would be far more likely that all human religions had got it wrong than that one had somehow miraculously got it right - and that even if one had got it right, there would be no actual way of knowing (or of proving) that this was the case. In which instance, if you were choosing your beliefs based purely on odds, athiesm is 50/50 - right or wrong - whereas any other religion is, in the case of a deity/s existing, one in the number of human religions which have ever existed.

HEYOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I certainly agree with this statement.

Now here comes the "What if Christianity is right and you end up in hell?" shpill.....

[secondeve]

I see this as a kind of Catch 22. If God exists, he would do so even without the Bible. On the other hand, the Bible is the only means of 'proving' that God exists in the first place, so without the Bible, there's no reason to believe he exists, even if he does.

But then again, my belief has been for some time that if there is an all-powerful deity/s, it would be far more likely that all human religions had got it wrong than that one had somehow miraculously got it right - and that even if one had got it right, there would be no actual way of knowing (or of proving) that this was the case. In which instance, if you were choosing your beliefs based purely on odds, athiesm is 50/50 - right or wrong - whereas any other religion is, in the case of a deity/s existing, one in the number of human religions which have ever existed.

HEYOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I certainly agree with this statement.

Now here comes the "What if Christianity is right and you end up in hell?" shpill.....

In which case, I'll leap in in advance. What if the ancient Greeks were right? What if Judaism, Islam or Zoroastriansim is right? If there is a god/s, then the odds aren't in anybody's favour of having picked the right one - whereas athiesm offers a 50% chance of being right. Which, by the way, isn't why I'm an athiest. I'm just trying to say that a lot of Christians ask this question as though the 50-50 probable split were between Christianity and athiesm, when it isn't, or as if this were a question which seriously plagued the majority of athiests. It isn't. Athiesm doesn't doubt the existence of just one god, after all - it doubts the existence of any and all. If we're wrong and somebody else is right, it really doesn't matter if that somebody is Christianity or the ancient Egyptians: we won't know until we're dead, and as there's no possible way to hedge your bets and believe in everything to be on the safe side, it seems kind of odd to worry about a specific hell or afterlife, as opposed to the more generic uncertainty of what happens. After all, not every religion has a hell. Anyway, in conclusion, I think it's about as pertinent a question to reasons for belief as asking a Christian 'what if Islam is right and you end up in hell.' If they don't worry about that, then why should I? And why, for that matter, should any of us?

[systemstrike_7]

I see this as a kind of Catch 22. If God exists, he would do so even without the Bible. On the other hand, the Bible is the only means of 'proving' that God exists in the first place, so without the Bible, there's no reason to believe he exists, even if he does.

But then again, my belief has been for some time that if there is an all-powerful deity/s, it would be far more likely that all human religions had got it wrong than that one had somehow miraculously got it right - and that even if one had got it right, there would be no actual way of knowing (or of proving) that this was the case. In which instance, if you were choosing your beliefs based purely on odds, athiesm is 50/50 - right or wrong - whereas any other religion is, in the case of a deity/s existing, one in the number of human religions which have ever existed.

HEYOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I certainly agree with this statement.

Now here comes the "What if Christianity is right and you end up in hell?" shpill.....

In which case, I'll leap in in advance. What if the ancient Greeks were right? What if Judaism, Islam or Zoroastriansim is right? If there is a god/s, then the odds aren't in anybody's favour of having picked the right one - whereas athiesm offers a 50% chance of being right. Which, by the way, isn't why I'm an athiest. I'm just trying to say that a lot of Christians ask this question as though the 50-50 probable split were between Christianity and athiesm, when it isn't, or as if this were a question which seriously plagued the majority of athiests. It isn't. Athiesm doesn't doubt the existence of just one god, after all - it doubts the existence of any and all. If we're wrong and somebody else is right, it really doesn't matter if that somebody is Christianity or the ancient Egyptians: we won't know until we're dead, and as there's no possible way to hedge your bets and believe in everything to be on the safe side, it seems kind of odd to worry about a specific hell or afterlife, as opposed to the more generic uncertainty of what happens. After all, not every religion has a hell. Anyway, in conclusion, I think it's about as pertinent a question to reasons for belief as asking a Christian 'what if Islam is right and you end up in hell.' If they don't worry about that, then why should I? And why, for that matter, should any of us?

You could also bring the issue of "self-preservation" to light. Is religion not just a human invention in hopes of something other than death? What would any of us wish for at this point. To live forever. Well, early humans wanted the same thing. So why not hope for it? Why not invent an idea that we will go to a better place? Of course, you need to keep everyone in line, so let's say that only the good one's go to heaven. Hence, hell was invented. In just about every religion, you have consequences after death. Whether it be reincarnation to a better life, or immortality in a utopia. The bad side could be reincarnation to a lesser being, or immortality in a torture chamber. Then, of course, philosophical ideas of our origins came about. Thus, Genesis was thought up. Is this not possible? I think there is a better chance of none of these presumptions being correct, than one of them happening to get it right, just as secondeve said.

[Guest shiloh357]

You could also bring the issue of "self-preservation" to light. Is religion not just a human invention in hopes of something other than death? What would any of us wish for at this point. To live forever. Well, early humans wanted the same thing. So why not hope for it? Why not invent an idea that we will go to a better place? Of course, you need to keep everyone in line, so let's say that only the good one's go to heaven. Hence, hell was invented. In just about every religion, you have consequences after death. Whether it be reincarnation to a better life, or immortality in a utopia. The bad side could be reincarnation to a lesser being, or immortality in a torture chamber. Then, of course, philosophical ideas of our origins came about. Thus, Genesis was thought up. Is this not possible? I think there is a better chance of none of these presumptions being correct, than one of them happening to get it right, just as secondeve said.

Well, the Bible being what it is, would never have been produced by men. The Bible by virtue of its claims concerning humanity is an offense to human nature. Human nature could not have produced the Bible, and even it could, it never would. The Bible simply could not have been invented by human beings.

[systemstrike_7]

You could also bring the issue of "self-preservation" to light. Is religion not just a human invention in hopes of something other than death? What would any of us wish for at this point. To live forever. Well, early humans wanted the same thing. So why not hope for it? Why not invent an idea that we will go to a better place? Of course, you need to keep everyone in line, so let's say that only the good one's go to heaven. Hence, hell was invented. In just about every religion, you have consequences after death. Whether it be reincarnation to a better life, or immortality in a utopia. The bad side could be reincarnation to a lesser being, or immortality in a torture chamber. Then, of course, philosophical ideas of our origins came about. Thus, Genesis was thought up. Is this not possible? I think there is a better chance of none of these presumptions being correct, than one of them happening to get it right, just as secondeve said.

Well, the Bible being what it is, would never have been produced by men. The Bible by virtue of its claims concerning humanity is an offense to human nature. Human nature could not have produced the Bible, and even it could, it never would. The Bible simply could not have been invented by human beings.

That's a bold statement.

I think that the J writer did a pretty good job of explaining why HE sins. The priests couldn't be perfect, and they may have just wanted to justify their follies. Gives them room to mess up every once in a while and not feel too terribly bad about it.

[maguschris]

wow does anyone see the ridiculousness of this?

"The Bible simply could not have been invented by human beings."

See there is no way you can say this. Look at it from a different point of view, say someone who has never heard of christianity. they might take it as a story of fiction. You cannot say that because you were not there.

Now I am not advocating the idea that the Bible is a work of fiction. But you CANNOT say with any evidenced statement that God wrote the Bible. bear with me here...

Also, those who say the PEOPLE who wrote the Bible were not divinely inspired are also stating what they cannot prove.

who actually wrote the Bible? Well, man. We physically transcribed it therefore man wrote the Bible. HOWEVER! Where did the ideas come from?

Man or God? There is no way to prove either, unless we invent a time machine which is highly unlikely.

I think that the Bible is divinely inspired.

But I do have a question to go along with this:

Why, if the Bible is 100% divinely inspired does the OT reflect the culture of the time when it was written? (like sexism towards women, children suffering for the sins of their parents, etc)

Also, why does God kill MILLIONS if not mroe of innocent children for the errs of their parents, which happens more than once in the Bible. This issue GREATLY bothers me. I know the answer is "well they got eternal life"...If you hold this viewpoint, then, logically how can you oppose abortion? If your answer is "God created us, he can kill us anytime, it's his right" then I have to ask why did he bother creating us if we would eventually grieve him so, to the point of violating the commandments he gave down to us to adhere to?

[anne~]

Why do christians even bother discussing this? You all believe you know the truth and not a word of what you say will convince a non-christian that what you say is true. The whole point of most religions is to put together a set of presumptions that cannot be tested, and therefore not disproven. For example...this question of authorship of the bible is set up to be completely untestable. There is no way to demonstrate whether it was god-inspired or if it was written as a chain story over many years by a bunch of lunatics.

The point is...if you want to believe this you will and nothing anyone can say will shake your belief. Faith exists to provide a framework of comfort based on assumptions and base statements that are designed to be immune from inquiry. This makes a system of faith "infallable." None of that will ever make a single person who has an open mind "come to faith." Claims such as those made here probably drive more people away from christianity than are attracted to it because anyone can see what is going on here....a priori assumptions without any basis that can be tested or examined. How would anyone outside the faith ever come to accept this?

[tdrehfal]

Why do christians even bother discussing this? You all believe you know the truth and not a word of what you say will convince a non-christian that what you say is true. The whole point of most religions is to put together a set of presumptions that cannot be tested, and therefore not disproven. For example...this question of authorship of the bible is set up to be completely untestable. There is no way to demonstrate whether it was god-inspired or if it was written as a chain story over many years by a bunch of lunatics.

The point is...if you want to believe this you will and nothing anyone can say will shake your belief. Faith exists to provide a framework of comfort based on assumptions and base statements that are designed to be immune from inquiry. This makes a system of faith "infallable." None of that will ever make a single person who has an open mind "come to faith." Claims such as those made here probably drive more people away from christianity than are attracted to it because anyone can see what is going on here....a priori assumptions without any basis that can be tested or examined. How would anyone outside the faith ever come to accept this?

I don't really understand this viewpoint at all. The Bible would be the most testable Holy Book there is, since it contains prophecies, which can be tested,

and it contains teachings which can be applied to your life, which can be tested. The Bible is full of truth. Truth that comes from God.

[tdrehfal]

wow does anyone see the ridiculousness of this?

"The Bible simply could not have been invented by human beings."

See there is no way you can say this. Look at it from a different point of view, say someone who has never heard of christianity. they might take it as a story of fiction. You cannot say that because you were not there.

Now I am not advocating the idea that the Bible is a work of fiction. But you CANNOT say with any evidenced statement that God wrote the Bible. bear with me here...

Also, those who say the PEOPLE who wrote the Bible were not divinely inspired are also stating what they cannot prove.

who actually wrote the Bible? Well, man. We physically transcribed it therefore man wrote the Bible. HOWEVER! Where did the ideas come from?

Man or God? There is no way to prove either, unless we invent a time machine which is highly unlikely.

I think that the Bible is divinely inspired.

But I do have a question to go along with this:

Why, if the Bible is 100% divinely inspired does the OT reflect the culture of the time when it was written? (like sexism towards women, children suffering for the sins of their parents, etc)

Also, why does God kill MILLIONS if not mroe of innocent children for the errs of their parents, which happens more than once in the Bible. This issue GREATLY bothers me. I know the answer is "well they got eternal life"...If you hold this viewpoint, then, logically how can you oppose abortion? If your answer is "God created us, he can kill us anytime, it's his right" then I have to ask why did he bother creating us if we would eventually grieve him so, to the point of violating the commandments he gave down to us to adhere to?

Where does this MILLIONS number come from? I'm not familiar with the passage stating the exact number of children that died, unless you're

referring to the Great Flood. It's God's right to create just as it's God's right to kill. So the fact that babies most likely go to heaven is no excuse

for man aborting them. If God is interacting with man, he would most logically do within their cultural context. If God were to answer a prayer

for me today, in the form of an audible voice (though I don't think God speaks this way often, and it's probably for reason, but that is beyond

the scope of the discussion) he would answer it in english and not hebrew or aramaic, right? God created women for a specific role, or purpose,

this does not mean there's something wrong with that, as far as 'sexism' goes. Women have a different role. The problem is that there's

something wrong with OUR culture, and US. The problem is not with the Bible. There's plenty in the Bible that doesn't need a cultural context.

Loving your neighbor as yourself certainly doesn't.

[Arthur Durnan]

One will simply humbly read & study the settled Word of God, asking the Holy Spirit to take the particular passage in context & apply it to one's waiting heart. It's the Holy Spirit's vital task, to "guide us into the truth" step-by-step, giving God all the glory. We may indeed have differences of interpretation on various points, but those differences are not the Lord's, they're our differences. "The Law of the Lord is PERFECT, converting the soul..." AMEN!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com