Abraham

[Guest shiloh357]

Davey, I hope your not into that British Israelism stuff.

The ten tribes were never lost. you should read your bible. In the OT, many of the ten tribes returned to Israel to celebrate the feasts. In the NT, Anna, the prophetess was from the tribe of Asher. Besides, God knows which Israelites today are from which tribe. They cannot be lost in the absolute sense anyway.

British Israelism is taught by Garner Ted Armstrong and others of similar ilk. Please tell me that you do not buy into that stuff.

[OneAccord]

Davey, I hope your not into that British Israelism stuff.

The ten tribes were never lost. you should read your bible. In the OT, many of the ten tribes returned to Israel to celebrate the feasts. In the NT, Anna, the prophetess was from the tribe of Asher. Besides, God knows which Israelites today are from which tribe. They cannot be lost in the absolute sense anyway.

British Israelism is taught by Garner Ted Armstrong and others of similar ilk. Please tell me that you do not buy into that stuff.

Can today's Israelites, presumably the Jews, trace their lineage back to each particular tribe?

[Guest shiloh357]

Can today's Israelites, presumably the Jews, trace their lineage back to each particular tribe?

No, because the records were destroyed in destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

[OneAccord]

Many tribal peoples of the world can trace their family origins by clan or tribe based on oral records carefully preserved in the memories passed on to each generation. Were the jews not able to do the same and relied completely on written record?

[Guest davey]

No 'Shiloh357', I'm not an adherent to Armstrong's teachings, and have never read anything by the man.

And I well know that God has never lost any of His chosen people. The idea of "lost" you refer to comes from some of them not knowing their heritage in Israel. You might have understood that if you'd studied the Book of Hosea. And I really don't need someone to tell me I need to read my Bible. I can plainly read thank you.

But as for the "house of Israel" and the majority of the "house of Judah" being scattered through the nations, as God promised He would do if they fell into false worship, as per Deut.4:25 forward, yes, I believe it as WRITTEN.

And as for many of Israel being scattered to the West, yes again. And as for many of those Israelites not being of Judah, guess what? Yes again.

Shiloh357, since you made the statement that infers the ten tribes of Israel returned to the land of Israel, then please show me which Bible Scripture you get that from.

Even how James begins his salutation of James 1:1 shows that the majority of all 12 tribes were still scattered abroad during his day. Now just where would that be then?

James 1:1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

(KJV)

As far as the phrase "British Israelism stuff", that's often used by propagandists who refuse to believe any Israelites were scattered to the West. And it is also used by non-believing Jews that can't quite live with the idea of Christ removing many of His Promises and the Vineyard of His people away from Jerusalem for the time being, because of many of Judah's rejecting Him as The Cornerstone. (Matt.21 within the parable of the vineyard and husbandmen, compared with Isaiah 5).

Please, no fallacy remark slurs, just give me Scripture to back up what you believe, and I'll likewise respond in kind.

As for the example of Anna who was of the tribe Asher (Luke 2:36), we'll need more than that, because the below Scripture is how we know that 'some' of the children of the ten northern tribes chose to stay with the "house of Judah" in Jerusalem under Rehoboam, during the split of Israel into two kingdoms. But still, the majority of the ten tribes were scattered first, and I somehow feel you very well 'know' what I'm talking about.

I King 12:16-17

16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, "What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David." So Israel departed unto their tents.

17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

(KJV)

Note the distinction between "Judah" and "Israel" in the below verses:

II Kings 17:18-24

18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of His sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.

20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until He had cast them out of His sight.

The above is only about the carrying away of the ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel", because Judah's later captivity to Babylon was not yet.

21 For He rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin.

Jeroboam who was over the "house of Joseph" in the north was made king over the ten tribes in the north at Samaria, as per 1 Kings 11 through 12. The "house of David" means Rehoboam king of Judah, Solomon's son, at Jerusalem, who was still over the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;

23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

24 And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.

(KJV)

The king of Assyria did not take the "house of Judah" from Jerusalem into captivity. That would come later by Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, as per the Book of Jeremiah. This first captivity was only upon the ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" in the northern land of Israel. And the Assyrian king then placed foreign peoples of five other nations in the northern land of Israel around Samaria. (which became the Samaritans of New Testament description - John 4).

Scripture about the original ordained split of Israel by God's Hand:

IKing 11:29-31

29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:

30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:

31 And he said to Jeroboam, "Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

(KJV)

More on that split....

IKing 12:20-24

20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an HUNDRED AND FOURSCORE THOUSAND chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

That 180,000 thousand were only of Judah, the house of David, and Benjamin. They were preparing to go to war against the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" in the northern land of Israel.

1 Kings 12:22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

23 "Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,

24 'Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from Me.'" They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.

(KJV)

Let's see, an hundred and fourscore thousand (180,000), just of Judah and Benjamin alone in Jerusalem before any captivity. And that's not even including the thousands of the ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" still dwelling in the north at that time.

Let's see how many returned to Jerusalem after the later Babylon captivity of just the tribes at Jerusalem:

Ezra 1:1-5

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

2 "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and He hath charged me to build Him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (He is the God,) Which is in Jerusalem.

4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem."

5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

(KJV)

After the lists of genealogy of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and then the Nethinim foreigner priests, and then foreign bondservants were listed, the total sum was this for the return to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity:

Ezra 2:64-65

64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

65 Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.

(KJV)

Now who does that say returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity? Three tribes, and per that Ezra account, a very small portion of those original three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. (Around 43,000 only, which only a portion of those were of Israel, as the majority with them were foreigners from Babylon). There's a big difference between 180,000 of Judah and Benjamin BEFORE the Babylon captivity vs. that small remnant that returned, that is, to anyone who can count.

So where's all the rest? Clearly there were ten other tribes also of Israel before the split, and before the two captivities, first of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) to the land of the Medes by the Assyrian, and then later the captivity of the "house of Judah" (three tribes at Jerusalem) to Babylon by the king of Babylon. Yet it is not written there in Ezra of the ten tribes being gathered back to Jerusalem with that small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Just as James said, to the "twelve tribes scattered abroad", which shows that James knew the majority of Israel was scattered through the countries still.

In Christ,

Davey.

[Guest Teri]

Davey would you continue on with this study, what you present is very interesting and I would like to continue.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

This is that whole "Two House" theology I have heard so much about. The argument ultimately is that the Gentiles in the West are Ephraim. Yes, it is British Israelism. Britain, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the US are all descendants from the ten tribes according to this view.

Per translations of the Assyrian Tablets in 1930 by Leroy Waterman at the University of Michigan, the ten tribes lost their Israelite heritage and took other names and customs, and then became known as Cimmerians (from which sprang the Celtic, Norsk, Saxon, Gaul, etc.), which migrated mainly to Asia Minor (Galatia was a name derived from the word Gaul, which is what the Romans called the Celts) and western Europe.

Some may not like it, but those "multitude of nations" of Ephraim, and Manasseh his brother also becoming "great", is speaking about the ten tribes of Israel which founded the western Christian nations, including America.

Even how James begins his salutation of James 1:1 shows that the majority of all 12 tribes were still scattered abroad during his day. Now just where would that be then?

Acts 2:8-11

"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? [9] "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, [10] Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, [11] Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

We see that Jews and their Gentile prosylites from several nations, none of them representing the celtic lands or the North American continent, were in Israel for the festival Sukkot (pentecost). James wrote his book early on, since he was the first apostle to be martyred. So it is doubtful in the first century that his book was being read in Liverpool during the first century.

[Guest yod]

James wrote his book early on, since he was the first apostle to be martyred. So it is doubtful in the first century that his book was being read in Liverpool during the first century.

there is some historical evidence to suggest that there was a large body of jews in Spain during this time, though.

[Guest davey]

Hello Teri,

The history and prophecies about the two separate 'houses' of Israel was first written in Old Testament history. I know that many of my brethren of Judah appear to have a hard time understanding what God's Word says on this, but 'some' of them do understand and well know these things. For the majority of all the twelve tribes were scattered out of the land of Israel not long after Solomon's days.

Ezek 37:15-16

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah', and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph', the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

(KJV)

Our Heavenly Father made this really simple, and the act He told Ezekiel to do above is in very much the sense of trying to explain something simple to little children who are a bit, hard-headed and don't want to listen. Take one stick and write on it "For Judah", which means the "house of Judah" and his companions of Benjamin and Levi at Jerusalem, including those children of Israel that went south to Jerusalem when king Jeroboam setup the two golden calf idols (1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 13).

Then take another stick, and write upon it "For Joseph", which is the "stick of Ephraim" and called "the house of Israel". Per history, Ephraim and Manasseh were of the two largest tribes of the twelve. They mainly lived in the northern lands of Israel along with the rest of the ten tribes, and their capitol seat was at Samaria.

Ezek 37:17-18

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

(KJV)

Can we still hear some saying, "Well what in the world is Ezekiel doing that two stick thing for? What in the world does it mean?"

Ezek 37:19-20

19 Say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes."

(KJV)

Our Heavenly Father is simply saying, "Ok now Ezekiel, take the two sticks with the names of the two 'houses' written upon them, and put them together." Here again we see the Scripture evidence of two separate houses of Israel; the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim as head), and the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem. So when did that joining happen, or when will it happen, if not yet?

Ezek 37:21

21 And say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

(KJV)

There was a great gathering of Israel back to the Holy Land in May of 1948, when Israel became a nation again by U.N. Charter vote (and it actually began before that). Most of those are of the "house of Judah". But notice the further indicators in Ezekiel that shows the largest gathering, and the putting together of the two sticks, still is not yet:

Ezek 37:22

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

(KJV)

This "one king" is a major indicator, because the last king of Judah in the Holy Land was Zedekiah, who went into captivity to Babylon during Jeremiah's day (around 490 B.C.). There has not been a king of the 'house of David' to sit on a throne in Jerusalem, since that time. There still is not a king there today. So obviously the above verse has not been fulilled yet. That "one king" refers to our Lord Yashua Messiah Jesus Christ, per the Title of "Shiloh" of the Genesis 49:10 verse. He is That One King Who will reign there when the "two nations" of Israel are put back together. There's more timing indicators to come on this in the next verses:

Ezek 37:23-24

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My People, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

(KJV)

We know that king David died a long time ago, and many interpret this to mean our Lord Christ as He is the Son of David. Either way one believes that, common sense says that has not occurred yet, because either way, the last trump change would have to have happen to fulfill it (1 Cor.15; Rev.11:16). If you understand that a false messiah (antichrist) is coming first also, per 2 Thessalonians 2, then we know the 'abomination' of idol worship in Jeruslaem is not over yet either. But there's still... more indicators to come:

Ezek 37:25-27

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My People.

(KJV)

After the two kingdom split of 1 Kings 11 forward, many times when the word "Jacob" is used, it is put for all twelve tribes, meaning all of Israel, since Jacob was the father of all twelve. Because of this Ezek.37 revealing that both 'houses' are not to be put back together until the last trump, then we know that "Jacob" is an indicator for the future in some verses, as it is here.

Those are hard indicators there, of our Heavenly Father revealing the start of Christ's everlasting reign there. The parallel Scriptures to this event are in Revelation 20 through 22, Ezekiel 40 through 48, and many other Scriptures in all The Bible (including a whole lot in Isaiah about the Gentiles being 'gathered' with both 'houses' also, and thus the "multiply them" phrase). Ezekiel 48 gives the final alignment of the twelve tribes in the land that God promised. Furthermore, the next Chapters of Ezekiel 38 & 39 lead up to the battle of Hamongog, which relates to Armageddon.

Thus the bottom line Message from our Heavenly Father in those Ezek.37 verses are that He well knows both 'houses' are still split today, and they'll remain split until the time of Christ's second coming. The "house of Judah" is still represented by that remnant of the three tribes per Ezra that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. But the majority of all... the twelve tribes, were scattered to the four corners of the earth after the two captivities long ago, and most of them are still scattered.

So does it make you wonder about those who deny all this, and what it is they're up to? Keep your eyes on Jerusalem and the rebuilding of a third Temple, and the false king who'll sit there first while we're still in the flesh, and then you'll know. The only True King still to come to Jerusalem, is our Lord Yashua Messiah Jesus Christ, and He is not going to be a 'flesh' king over flesh subjects, for at the sound of the last trumpet, all alive upon this earth will be changed. And any Temple there in Jerusalem made with flesh hands, will be as He said, "...there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mark 13:2; Zechariah 14).

In Christ,

Davey.

[Guest yod]

But the majority of all... the twelve tribes, were scattered to the four corners of the earth after the two captivities long ago, and most of them are still scattered.

So does it make you wonder about those who deny all this, and what it is they're up to?

I don't know anyone who would deny that what you have said is true, Davey. The problem comes when someone claims to be of the house of Ephraim because there simply is no proof. That's why some of the "theology" that goes along with the 2 house theory is kinda whack.

And these congregations seem to be more into rabbinical legalistic traditions because of their identity crisis. It's like they have to prove that they are jews.

Are you capable of explaining the official position of the Ephramite movement?