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Posted

That document called the "constitution" would prevent any kind of systematic religious persecution in the United States. As Christians, we are the vast majority of Americans. Almost our entire government at all levels is made up of Christians, and we probably enjoy less persecution here than in any other nation or society in the last 2000 years.

There are places in the world right now where Christians are being tortured, murdered, homes destroyed, and imprisoned simply because of their faith. It is a slap in the face to those who undergo true persecution because of their faith for Christians in America start claiming persecution. The fact that we cannot use the government as a vehicle to endorse, promote, or compel others to adhere to our religious beliefs does not equate to persecution, if anything it prevents it.

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Posted
That document called the "constitution" would prevent any kind of systematic religious persecution in the United States. As Christians, we are the vast majority of Americans. Almost our entire government at all levels is made up of Christians, and we probably enjoy less persecution here than in any other nation or society in the last 2000 years.

There are places in the world right now where Christians are being tortured, murdered, homes destroyed, and imprisoned simply because of their faith. It is a slap in the face to those who undergo true persecution because of their faith for Christians in America start claiming persecution. The fact that we cannot use the government as a vehicle to endorse, promote, or compel others to adhere to our religious beliefs does not equate to persecution, if anything it prevents it.

I would agree Forrest. One of the best books I read in the last year was "Jesus Freaks"...about persons who suffered persecution. It is unbelievable the amount of persecution Christians face in our modern world. Americans really have no case to cry about persecution from the government.


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Posted
It doesn't take a genius to know that Gov't and church doesn't mix. Your not brightening any bulbs with that nugget of truth. What you seem unable to grasp is that we are told not to worry about it. Find me one verse that says its okay to worry about this kinda stuff.

The Bible says we are not to worry, as in Dread. It says nothing of not being concerned (in fact, this is what landed the Pharisees in trouble).

Regardless, you act as if though we can move on our merry little way and any trouble that could potentially arrive no longer matters - after all, God is in control, is He not?

Unfortunately for you, God is not a hard determinist, as you seem to be, in that though His Will reigns in the end, we are allowed to make mistakes along the way. Israel seeking a king was against God's Will, and caused massive problems for Israel. Though God wins in the end, if His people do not act during the journey there, people suffer.

You don't seem to be accomplishing ANY of that. You don't respect the gov't...you worry alot...and because of that your not doing the work. You are so concerned with how the past turned out, and how it might affect the future, you are not focused on what needs done today. You act as though every avenue for doing God's work has been shut off.

I mean, honestly, did you read what you said? Let's have fun proving this one wrong:

I don't respect the government:

Here is some reading for you. Destroys your theory on this one.

I worry a lot:

I don't worry about a thing. I have plenty of concerns on what Christians need to deal with, but I don't dread the future (the biblical definition of worry)

I'm not doing my work:

Hmmm...but I am.

I don't focus on today:

Right, sorry for not being near sighted and abandoning the idea that what we do now has consequences in the future. I should think like Adam and Eve and simply enjoy what is good at that moment.

I love religious history. It is what I do. However, I never studied church history so I could apply it to my life today. I studied church history so I would know where it came from. I like to know why people believe the way they do. Perhaps we will have some enlightening historical discussions at some point. Unfortunately, at this point, I don't see God telling us to see what happened 1500 years ago in church history so that we can overcome whatever hardships may hit us in 25 years.

Then you didn't understand history. Though history is not cyclical in the Eastern idea of it, it certainly does have repetitive points. Hitler's style of leadership, and how he came to power, was played out quite a number of times prior to it actually occurring. It has played out at least once since Hitler (Saddam). The formation of the United States, though unique in many ways, was still not completely unique in that many parts of it had already occurred in history. We study history not for its own sake, but because it has practical applications to today. We look at this law, which infringes (even if slightly) upon what the Church can and cannot do. It allows the government to put its foot in the door and tell Christians what we can and cannot do. Later in life, this could not just cause hardship, but also prevent the Gospel from being heard or make Christianity irrelevant (which, again, has occurred historically).

As someone who has been persecuted for preaching Christ, I don't really see what my knowledge in church history has to do with it. ANYONE who is consistenly laboring for Christ, even in America, will face persecution. If you don't know that, you aren't working.

I'm arguing against irrelevancy, not persecution.

You should stop assuming so much - it's obvious your gift isn't discernment, so please, don't act as if though you've discerned who I am or where I stand.


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Posted
That document called the "constitution" would prevent any kind of systematic religious persecution in the United States. As Christians, we are the vast majority of Americans. Almost our entire government at all levels is made up of Christians, and we probably enjoy less persecution here than in any other nation or society in the last 2000 years.

For one, the Document has been translated as a "living document." This allows whatever court is currently in session to interpret it how it sees fit. This is why we have certain laws in America that, though blatantly unconstitutional, are still allowed. Furthermore, I would advocate that it is an empty document - it only has say so long as a vast majority of American's ruling elite still believe in its principles. The moment they don't, the Constitution no longer matters. Third, majority of Christians does not matter. Currently, in the universities, the majority are atheists or non-Christian (non-Theists). This is where lawyers, judges, congressmen, presidents, governors, etc are "born." This is the problem with most Americans - we look at our present situation and fail to look down the road.

There are places in the world right now where Christians are being tortured, murdered, homes destroyed, and imprisoned simply because of their faith. It is a slap in the face to those who undergo true persecution because of their faith for Christians in America start claiming persecution. The fact that we cannot use the government as a vehicle to endorse, promote, or compel others to adhere to our religious beliefs does not equate to persecution, if anything it prevents it.

Again, name one spot where I complained about persecution. I was complaining about irrelevancy, which is far worse than persecution.


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Posted

2 Thess

ch.3

10. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should eat.

11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

I know, context, but it does say something, doesnt it?


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Posted
2 Thess

ch.3

10. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should eat.

11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

I know, context, but it does say something, doesnt it?

What are you trying to extrapolate from this passage?


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Posted

If the members of the church were required to do good works in order to partake of the church food, why wouldnt an able bodied person be required to work for his food as well?


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Posted
If the members of the church were required to do good works in order to partake of the church food, why wouldnt an able bodied person be required to work for his food as well?

So you're taking one example in Thessolonia and trying to use it to trump the words of Christ and Paul in other epistles? This is not me comparing scripture to scripture to see which one we should follow, but merely showing that your interpretation, when put in a broader context, fails.

The context of the passage, which you willfully and admittedly ignored, gives us what Paul is saying - no free bees. If someone is abusing the system, they are to be kicked out. This does not mean, however, that a person without work, who suffers from a mental illness, that is struggling to overcome drugs, that is down on their luck, etc is to be denied food.

Man, Christians will make any and every excuse to stop helping those they don't desire. Christians USED to be mocked for reaching out to the poor and helpless, back in the first, second, and third century. We are not mocked for that today, nor admired. That should say something.


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Posted

NO NO NO, I said ABLE BODIED Person.

I am not trumping the words of Christ at all.

I am making a correlation with scripture.

In my first post I stated "context" knowing it was a different situation but somehow similar.

I'm not trying to get out of helping "those I dont desire".

Dont even play that card on me.

I have volunteered in many shelters and many soup kitchens as well as made baby blankets for the poor preemie babies, volunteer in disaster clean up, donated hair for cancer wigs, gave money, give blood gave sweat and tears as well as a bone marrow donor.

blah blah blah.

I'm not trying to get out of anything.

What I AM trying to do is stop perpetuating lazyness.

If I see someone that has a sign "will work for food" I give them the option of working for my company for a day and have NEVER been taken up on that offer.

Those who are truely needy, sick, mental illness, addicted etc, I help all I can, but the able bodied lazy ones deserve to work for what they eat.

I am waliking the walk, not just talking the talk.

More than I can say for a lot of people.


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Posted
NO NO NO, I said ABLE BODIED Person.

I am not trumping the words of Christ at all.

I am making a correlation with scripture.

In my first post I stated "context" knowing it was a different situation but somehow similar.

I'm not trying to get out of helping "those I dont desire".

Dont even play that card on me.

I have volunteered in many shelters and many soup kitchens as well as made baby blankets for the poor preemie babies, volunteer in disaster clean up, donated hair for cancer wigs, gave money, give blood gave sweat and tears as well as a bone marrow donor.

blah blah blah.

I'm not trying to get out of anything.

What I AM trying to do is stop perpetuating lazyness.

If I see someone that has a sign "will work for food" I give them the option of working for my company for a day and have NEVER been taken up on that offer.

Those who are truely needy, sick, mental illness, addicted etc, I help all I can, but the able bodied lazy ones deserve to work for what they eat.

I am waliking the walk, not just talking the talk.

More than I can say for a lot of people.

I agree

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