Don't Feed the Homeless

[apothanein kerdos]

NO NO NO, I said ABLE BODIED Person.

I am not trumping the words of Christ at all.

I am making a correlation with scripture.

In my first post I stated "context" knowing it was a different situation but somehow similar.

I'm not trying to get out of helping "those I dont desire".

Dont even play that card on me.

I have volunteered in many shelters and many soup kitchens as well as made baby blankets for the poor preemie babies, volunteer in disaster clean up, donated hair for cancer wigs, gave money, give blood gave sweat and tears as well as a bone marrow donor.

blah blah blah.

I'm not trying to get out of anything.

What I AM trying to do is stop perpetuating lazyness.

If I see someone that has a sign "will work for food" I give them the option of working for my company for a day and have NEVER been taken up on that offer.

Those who are truely needy, sick, mental illness, addicted etc, I help all I can, but the able bodied lazy ones deserve to work for what they eat.

I am waliking the walk, not just talking the talk.

More than I can say for a lot of people.

You assume that many homeless people or beggars are lazy. Your interpretation still fails. Likewise, you assume that if they deny to work for you it's because they're lazy. They could be unskilled, or realize it only opens the door for a temporary job.

Again, where are these stipulations in the Bible? The scripture you used is also most often applied to pastors, that is, those who do ministry for pay, but in all reality don't work that hard for it. But hey, who needs hermeneutics?

Again, if the person can work the job, knows how to do it, but won't do it....then yes, according to Proverbs, they don't eat. However, it is quite the dangerous assumption on your part...

[Giaour]

I dont think it takes a lot of job skills to pick up trash!

You know, if I was homeless and hungry and someone offered a days wages to me as well as buy my lunch, I'd jump at the chance and hope my work ethic would lead to a full time job.

Like it or not many beggars ARE lazy.

We've got some in gainesville that make more money than I do. And they do nothing but beg from college students on campus.

They have houses and cars and nice clothes, begging IS their job.

No assumptions on my part, I flat out ask them.

[Giaour]

Regardless, if this law stops me from helping anyone I feel God leads me to help, I'll just take my chances with the court system.

Hey, persecuted for Christ? It would be an honor.

Somehow, I dont think this law is stopping anyone from helping the poor.

[Axxman]

The Bible says we are not to worry, as in Dread. It says nothing of not being concerned (in fact, this is what landed the Pharisees in trouble).

Regardless, you act as if though we can move on our merry little way and any trouble that could potentially arrive no longer matters - after all, God is in control, is He not?

Unfortunately for you, God is not a hard determinist, as you seem to be, in that though His Will reigns in the end, we are allowed to make mistakes along the way. Israel seeking a king was against God's Will, and caused massive problems for Israel. Though God wins in the end, if His people do not act during the journey there, people suffer.

I mean, honestly, did you read what you said? Let's have fun proving this one wrong:

I don't respect the government:

Here is some reading for you. Destroys your theory on this one.

I worry a lot:

I don't worry about a thing. I have plenty of concerns on what Christians need to deal with, but I don't dread the future (the biblical definition of worry)

I'm not doing my work:

Hmmm...but I am.

I don't focus on today:

Right, sorry for not being near sighted and abandoning the idea that what we do now has consequences in the future. I should think like Adam and Eve and simply enjoy what is good at that moment.

Then you didn't understand history. Though history is not cyclical in the Eastern idea of it, it certainly does have repetitive points. Hitler's style of leadership, and how he came to power, was played out quite a number of times prior to it actually occurring. It has played out at least once since Hitler (Saddam). The formation of the United States, though unique in many ways, was still not completely unique in that many parts of it had already occurred in history. We study history not for its own sake, but because it has practical applications to today. We look at this law, which infringes (even if slightly) upon what the Church can and cannot do. It allows the government to put its foot in the door and tell Christians what we can and cannot do. Later in life, this could not just cause hardship, but also prevent the Gospel from being heard or make Christianity irrelevant (which, again, has occurred historically).

I'm arguing against irrelevancy, not persecution.

You should stop assuming so much - it's obvious your gift isn't discernment, so please, don't act as if though you've discerned who I am or where I stand.

Alrighty...well I'm justifiably confused. In one thread you are "kinda" pro-government...even going so far as to go bold and underline "and those which exist are established by God." All this proves is that you can change you stance whenever it meets your needs.

We'll save whether or not I understand history for a day when history matters to the topic. Don't be so worried about what might happen "later in life" that you marginalize God. Did it not ever occur to you that ALL the hardships that the church has been through...were ordained by God? Maybe you're so worried about this because you are afraid of hardship...I don't know. You've definitely got some problems with this that I can't comprehend. I've seen hardship. My dad smuggled bible's into communist Russia in the 1970's...one of my good friends nearly lost his father who was preaching God's word in South America...my friend (and manager) was kicked in the face for praying during an alter call in a border town...I was beaten by a gang in South Houston because I refused to stop witnessing to a group of young kids during a street ministry. I've seen a few things my friend.

Your complaining about a law that protects EVERYBODY involved...including the homeless. There is nothing to fear, cuz God is in control. There are 1000's of stories in history about how God overcame corruptness in governments in order to get His work done. There are people who complain about not being able to get the work done...and people who do it. I am glad that my dad raised me with the mentality to just get things done.

As far as my discernment skills go....I apologize. It was not my intent to make this personal about you. We are just having a little go at each other. If I offended you, I am sorry. For the record, I am NOT offended. Its just a little bit of passionate debate.

[apothanein kerdos]

I dont think it takes a lot of job skills to pick up trash!

You know, if I was homeless and hungry and someone offered a days wages to me as well as buy my lunch, I'd jump at the chance and hope my work ethic would lead to a full time job.

Like it or not many beggars ARE lazy.

We've got some in gainesville that make more money than I do. And they do nothing but beg from college students on campus.

They have houses and cars and nice clothes, begging IS their job.

No assumptions on my part, I flat out ask them.

This is a logical fallacy. You cannot take the limited experience of a few and apply it to the majority, in any case. This is the equivalent of saying, "Because Ted Haggard did cocaine and had a male prostitute, all Christian preachers are guilty of this." Of course, you and no other Christian will ever make this claim, because Christian pastors look how we want them to.

Regardless, do you realize how you minimized them? This is the problem with American Christians. "They can pick up trash!" What if that is not what God has called them to? Does it not make more sense to take in the ones willing to work, find out their talents, then do all we can to help them achieve these talents?

No, instead we are stuck on our culture. Work in any way you can to make whatever you can - Christianity only has a few years left in America. We're irrelevant to the intellects, we're irrelevant to the media, we're irrelevant to the schools, we're irrelevant to the youth, and we're quickly becoming irrelevant to the needy because of our bias. When we become irrelevant to society, at that point, society stops listening to you. When that happens, you slowly die out. Don't believe me? Ask the Christians in Europe from 1600-1800.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

You cannot take the limited experience of a few and apply it to the majority, in any case. This is the equivalent of saying, "Because Ted Haggard did cocaine and had a male prostitute, all Christian preachers are guilty of this."

How true this statement is. It doesn't even apply only to this topic, it applies to countless others.

The sooner we acknowledge that this applies to situations from both sides of the spectrum, the sooner we can come to peace with others.

[apothanein kerdos]

Alrighty...well I'm justifiably confused. In one thread you are "kinda" pro-government...even going so far as to go bold and underline "and those which exist are established by God." All this proves is that you can change you stance whenever it meets your needs.

No, what it proves is you lack the analytical skills necessary for debate, reading, and discussion. Notice in those threads I said there are times to rise up and disobey the government - whenever it dictates what the Church can and cannot do. I also said that though all governments are established by God, they can go against God (by doing what I previously pointed out). My position did not change at all. Read "Christian Manifesto" by Schaeffer to get a good idea of where I'm coming from.

We'll save whether or not I understand history for a day when history matters to the topic. Don't be so worried about what might happen "later in life" that you marginalize God. Did it not ever occur to you that ALL the hardships that the church has been through...were ordained by God? Maybe you're so worried about this because you are afraid of hardship...I don't know. You've definitely got some problems with this that I can't comprehend. I've seen hardship. My dad smuggled bible's into communist Russia in the 1970's...one of my good friends nearly lost his father who was preaching God's word in South America...my friend (and manager) was kicked in the face for praying during an alter call in a border town...I was beaten by a gang in South Houston because I refused to stop witnessing to a group of young kids during a street ministry. I've seen a few things my friend.

Well daisy to you. Wanna know why your dad had to smuggle in Bibles to Russia? The reason is Christians stopped caring and helping the poor, which made the poor feel alienated. The Church aligned itself with the Government (due to the sacralism that was left over when the Orthodox church went to Russia) which allowed for Lenin to deny the government and the Church. By allowing small steps in, the Church alienated itself from the people.

This is what I am talking about. I am not concerned with persecution or suffering. I have never ONCE said it would lead to that. If you keep with this line, quote me on where I said it. I am talking about becoming irrelevant to the culture. When you become irrelevant, they no longer beat you, they no longer throw you in jail - they simply pass you, on a daily basis, ignoring what you have to say and look upon you with apathy. The salt ceases to be salt.

[Giaour]

I dont think it takes a lot of job skills to pick up trash!

You know, if I was homeless and hungry and someone offered a days wages to me as well as buy my lunch, I'd jump at the chance and hope my work ethic would lead to a full time job.

Like it or not many beggars ARE lazy.

We've got some in gainesville that make more money than I do. And they do nothing but beg from college students on campus.

They have houses and cars and nice clothes, begging IS their job.

No assumptions on my part, I flat out ask them.

This is a logical fallacy. You cannot take the limited experience of a few and apply it to the majority, in any case. This is the equivalent of saying, "Because Ted Haggard did cocaine and had a male prostitute, all Christian preachers are guilty of this." Of course, you and no other Christian will ever make this claim, because Christian pastors look how we want them to.

Regardless, do you realize how you minimized them? This is the problem with American Christians. "They can pick up trash!" What if that is not what God has called them to? Does it not make more sense to take in the ones willing to work, find out their talents, then do all we can to help them achieve these talents?

No, instead we are stuck on our culture. Work in any way you can to make whatever you can - Christianity only has a few years left in America. We're irrelevant to the intellects, we're irrelevant to the media, we're irrelevant to the schools, we're irrelevant to the youth, and we're quickly becoming irrelevant to the needy because of our bias. When we become irrelevant to society, at that point, society stops listening to you. When that happens, you slowly die out. Don't believe me? Ask the Christians in Europe from 1600-1800.

When did I say the majority? Please show me where I said that.

I didnt minimalize anyone.

I PICK UP TRASH every single day! Are you saying MY job is somehow beneath beggars?

Shame on you.

You think God has called them to beg rather than pick up trash and make money for food?

Bias towards the needy? Give me a break.

Why would I volunteer so much time and money and effort to help those I supposedly have a bias against?

Whatever.

[apothanein kerdos]

I dont think it takes a lot of job skills to pick up trash!

You know, if I was homeless and hungry and someone offered a days wages to me as well as buy my lunch, I'd jump at the chance and hope my work ethic would lead to a full time job.

Like it or not many beggars ARE lazy.

We've got some in gainesville that make more money than I do. And they do nothing but beg from college students on campus.

They have houses and cars and nice clothes, begging IS their job.

No assumptions on my part, I flat out ask them.

This is a logical fallacy. You cannot take the limited experience of a few and apply it to the majority, in any case. This is the equivalent of saying, "Because Ted Haggard did cocaine and had a male prostitute, all Christian preachers are guilty of this." Of course, you and no other Christian will ever make this claim, because Christian pastors look how we want them to.

Regardless, do you realize how you minimized them? This is the problem with American Christians. "They can pick up trash!" What if that is not what God has called them to? Does it not make more sense to take in the ones willing to work, find out their talents, then do all we can to help them achieve these talents?

No, instead we are stuck on our culture. Work in any way you can to make whatever you can - Christianity only has a few years left in America. We're irrelevant to the intellects, we're irrelevant to the media, we're irrelevant to the schools, we're irrelevant to the youth, and we're quickly becoming irrelevant to the needy because of our bias. When we become irrelevant to society, at that point, society stops listening to you. When that happens, you slowly die out. Don't believe me? Ask the Christians in Europe from 1600-1800.

When did I say the majority? Please show me where I said that.

I didnt minimalize anyone.

I PICK UP TRASH every single day! Are you saying MY job is somehow beneath beggars?

Shame on you.

You think God has called them to beg rather than pick up trash and make money for food?

Bias towards the needy? Give me a break.

Why would I volunteer so much time and money and effort to help those I supposedly have a bias against?

Whatever.

Nice try to turn it on me, but you failed.

You allude to a majority in your post, using the anecdotal story of the "rich" beggars. If you didn't mean this for the majority, then what did you mean by it?

Secondly, I said on picking up trash, ""They can pick up trash!" What if that is not what God has called them to?"

I'm saying it's a crime whenever the Church fails to help bring someone to where God wants them.

You're so pragmatic in your approach...you fail to look at the Biblical approach to the issue.

[Guest LadyC]

AK, i think if you want these laws reversed, you need a better strategy than sitting on your thumbs doing nothing but typing out your complaints to those who are actively working at helping the poor and downtrodden.