Resurrection versus resuscitation

[wildside]

I don't pretend to know the answer Law. I'll just point out some scriptures that I think should be looked at. Somewhere it (not sure where), it calls the dead, those who have fallen asleep. Does that mean that people are sleeping in heaven? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but its a legitamate theological question you're asking, I thank you for asking it. Here's one, the most common one interpretted as immediate life in heaven, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Ok, but what does it mean to be present with the Lord. The Lord is eternal can we really fathom what it is like? "We don't know what we shall be but we know we shall be like Him." Isn't that also a verse? Back to the other side, remember in Revelation, where it says the spirits(or was it the souls, I don't remember, glad I'm not the Teacher here) of the saints cry out to him from underneath the altar in Heaven saying "How long oh Lord, how long until you avenge us." What is this about, dwelling under an altar, likely this is figurative language and surely is interpretted different ways. But this doesn't seem to be a very fit ending if that is the end of the journey of the righteous through the unknown afterlife. I apologize if I've gotten off the subject. What did David think? Take a look at psalm 69. "Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delievered from them that hate me and the deep waters." "Let not the pit shut her mouth on me." Again he said, something that is commonly attributed to Christ only, that God would not leave his soul in Seoul." If this is only referring to Christ it still is referring to Christ. So basically this sounds to me like David is saying that his soul is going somewhere, it doesn't sound like a particularly heavenly place, but he's still hopeful that God will take him out of this place. Knowing the truth about this is one thing, teaching it is another. I don't envy you in that task. May you be brave and bold and the Lord be with you. I'll bring up one final verse. "In my Father's house there are many rooms. If it was not so I would have told you." Still I'm not exactly on subject I think, my apologies again. Concerning bodily reserruction we can look at Ezekiels vision, if it was just a vision. I hope to hear some comments on this.

Peace

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

In Revelation6:9,10 we read, "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony whcih they had maintained; and THEY CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE, saying 'How long, O Lord, holy and true wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'" (NASB caps added)

(That which is unconscious cannot cry out nor can theY be spoken to (God answered them).

Matthew 10:28 JEsus says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. "

Genesis2:7 uses nephesh, soul and in Matthew psuche is translation of this use in more than the life itself in life principle- it is the soul as seat and center of inner man that transcends the earthly. THe word psuche can be used either way. However in this case it is used in the way nephesh is used in Genesis.

Acts 7:59 we read, :And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, ' Lord Jesus, RECIEVE MY SPIRIT!" This verse would make no sense if we were to interpert "Spirit" as (Pneuma) as simply life -force with in Stephen that ceased to exist at the moment of death. Why would Stephen ask Jesus TO RECIEVE that which was about to cease to exist? He is clearly asking Jesus TO RECEIVE AND TAKE TO HIMSELF that part of his self that would survive the death of his physical body.

(The word "Sleep" is often used in the Scripture to denot death it is never used in reference of the immaterial part of man. NOwhere does the Bible say that the soul ever passes into a state of unconsciousness. Mans plans cease when he dies because he is no longer living on earth and going to fulfill earthly plans after death. That in no way means that the soul is alseep or unconscious and again NO where dodes the Bible say that. Infact it says the opposite. ) Look at Luke20:38, we read of Jesus' word tothe Sadducees regarding the Old Testament saints Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: "He [God] is not the God of the dead, but OF THE LIVING; for all live to Him."

(The doctrine of the Sadducees is this; that the souls die with the bodies. But, Jesus' words clearly defy them and show that these Old Testament saints are LIVING AT THE PRESENT, even though they died physically long ago.)

Philippians1:21-23 we read, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. IF I am to go on living in the body, this wll mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?... I am TORN BETWEEN THE TWO; I DESIRE TO DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS BETTER BY FAR."

Paul is saying at the very moment of physical death he will be present with Christ.

Corinthians5:6-8 "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that WHILE WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE ABSENT FROM THE LORD- for we walk by faith, not by sight-we ar eof good courage, I say, and prefer rather TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND TO BE AT HOME WITH THE LORD."

[Guest LAW]

The last few responses were exactly what i wanted! i especially liked the Paul quote (i'm a Paul-freak! Can't get enuf of him) about to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. I totally forgot that!

Thanks to all for your help!

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

LAW,

I have a question.

What is your position that you are teaching this in a church?

Why teach something so important to others that you are not familar with?

I think these are very important questions, or I would not ask them to you.

elkie

[Guest LAW]

[What is your position that you are teaching this in a church?

Why teach something so important to others that you are not familar with?

I think these are very important questions, or I would not ask them to you.]

I am the Sunday School teacher for the adult class. I am not the only teacher. Obviously, i am not an expert of any sort on the Bible, but neither am i totally ignorant as well. I like to get feedback from other believers. The way you phrase your question is, i believe, very judgmental and hurtful. Should we never talk about scriptures or attempt to discuss them until we are so expert that we know all the answers or are we called to search them, asking others along the way in order to test them?

That being said, I am from a Methodist background, but have been in the Episcopal church for awhile. I have not returned to the Methodist church and, because i switched denominations, try to be cautious that i am not teaching outside the Methodist church's core beliefs (although i have no problem in expressing when i disagree with any particular stance). This one passage in our church-sanctioned teaching material shocked me. so i thought it best, not only to call the preacher and other study leaders, but to go to worthy board to ask about it.

Should i refrain from posting in the Doctrine section until i have studied the Bible more or have a firmer grip of scripture? I ask this sincerely. I first came to the worthy board to have a place to ask questions and get grounded answers--not to espouse what i believe; rather, to have it confirmed or seek correction if appropriate.

[refugepsa91]

Should i refrain from posting in the Doctrine section until i have studied the Bible more or have a firmer grip of scripture? I ask this sincerely. I first came to the worthy board to have a place to ask questions and get grounded answers--not to espouse what i believe; rather, to have it confirmed or seek correction if appropriate.

You post wherever you feel led to post....worthy does not restrict believers from any forums in the inner court.

A good study is linked below:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=55463

Love in Christ,

Angel

[nebula]

In a study guide I was reading, it maintained that when Jesus raised people from the dead, he resuscitated them rather than resurrected them because "resurrection" is being given a new life as opposed to "resuscitated" which is having the old life restored.

Personally, I think this is splitting hairs over the heart of the message. The message of the Bible is that Jesus brought back to life those that were dead.

Now, as for "resuscitate," I'm looking up the definition for this, and it says: "to revive from apparent death or from unconsciousness" (that's from a medicla dictionary). So simply by what the exact definition of the term is, Jesus did not resuscitate them, for by the medical definition, the dead are not resuscitated. (For that matter, resuscitations are not as common as Hollywood makes them out to be. Most attempts fail.)

So, my answer to your question is that the whole premise behind what the author is claiming is incorrect to begin with.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

[What is your position that you are teaching this in a church?

Why teach something so important to others that you are not familar with?

I think these are very important questions, or I would not ask them to you.]

I am the Sunday School teacher for the adult class. I am not the only teacher. Obviously, i am not an expert of any sort on the Bible, but neither am i totally ignorant as well. I like to get feedback from other believers. The way you phrase your question is, i believe, very judgmental and hurtful. Should we never talk about scriptures or attempt to discuss them until we are so expert that we know all the answers or are we called to search them, asking others along the way in order to test them?

That being said, I am from a Methodist background, but have been in the Episcopal church for awhile. I have not returned to the Methodist church and, because i switched denominations, try to be cautious that i am not teaching outside the Methodist church's core beliefs (although i have no problem in expressing when i disagree with any particular stance). This one passage in our church-sanctioned teaching material shocked me. so i thought it best, not only to call the preacher and other study leaders, but to go to worthy board to ask about it.

Should i refrain from posting in the Doctrine section until i have studied the Bible more or have a firmer grip of scripture? I ask this sincerely. I first came to the worthy board to have a place to ask questions and get grounded answers--not to espouse what i believe; rather, to have it confirmed or seek correction if appropriate.

I do not intentionally post anything hurtful or judgemental to anyone and am sorry that you took it the way you did. It is certainly opposite of how it was meant the way you have taken this. Of course you or anyone can post anything and discuss on boards here. I was concerned why someone would be teaching on a subject if they were not familar with it. The actual reason was never any sort of insult to you, as you have taken it. Quite the opposite. It was concern for others to know Scriptural teachings that are correct. But, it is difficult medium to explain or dicuss further on typing here. I don't want further misunderstood or any problems for anyone.

I went to alot of effort to find scriptures for your question and time to type it in for you to help in any way I could, as the post of Scriptures shows that I sent earlier here. I am not sure to say anything since I don't feel understood here and not wanting anything took wrong again and I wont come back to this post so no further problems to anyone. Being misunderstood , I don't think I want to say anything more except about assuming others intentions, it would be better not to assume the worst, which is usually not true; if you must error; error on the side of love and don't take the worst position when someone is attempting to speak with you. It's not about us. It's all about Jesus.