Just out of curiousity...

[tdrehfal]

You think that you are saving me with a belief, but I think that I am saving you from doing evil, with logic.

For example, I parsed out what I wanted.

I liked what he said there.

I see what you mean, I'll fix it. And thanks.

You said that it would be evil for God to require faith in Him and then stated that there's no way to prove He exists and you don't think seeing is believing,

so: If God appeared to you, you wouldn't believe, right?

Saying its evil to require faith is something we would just have to agree to disagree on. I don't see how its evil to require faith.

If you're married you can only take it by faith that your wife loves you. There's no scientific proof for that sort of thing, and if seeing

her actions isn't believing, then what are you left with?

Edited February 8, 2007 by tdrehfal

[tdrehfal]

Tdehrfal, I think your question can be divided into two:

(1) What would it take for you to believe in a god.

Better examples of irreducible complexity. Better indications that humans have some kind of intrinsic, designed purpose, etc.

(2) What would it take for you to believe in the Christian god.

What God did for Moses would work for me. Some kind of very vivid, unmistakable "real" vision.

No. My question is for seekers in the Faith V Science forum. God is the Christian God, but I don't need to force it on anyone.

God will reveal himself if asked. It may take many years of this 'asking' but God is not an idiot. He does not work according

to our timeline. My question is simply there to get the agnostic/atheist to ASK GOD.

Well, at least it does sound like you're open to God then. That's a good thing. Most people here just won't accept anything at all it seems.

[followerofjesus]

Once, years back I was talking with a little clique of about 3 young atheist men, both about the existence of God, and the Theory of Evolution. They affirmed that they believed in the Theory of Evolution had been 'proved.' and disbelieved in God, because His existence had not been 'proved.'

I questioned them thoroughly about just how much actual study they had in the area of comparative anatomy, and physical anthropology and each had much less than did I. I then stated that evolution had certainly NOT been proved to me, and asked "proved to whose satisfaction?"

Falling into my trap, they said: "Proved to the satisfaction of experts in the field."

To which I responded: "That is a good, intellectually honest standard on which to rely. Now then, let's ask Theologians about the existence of God.........."

Suddenly, that was not such a good standard any more!

Men do not reject Christ on intellectual grounds, but on moral grounds.

Thanks Leonard for this clarity & it is very well received. It makes very ratioanal sense.

Also unconditional love is real. Requiring faith means it must be unconditional. Conditional love is not real.

[followerofjesus]

conviction is painful sometimes.

[followerofjesus]

faith is a result of the unconditional love that has manifested itself after the fact. nice try. This is not a condition its a choice.

[tdrehfal]

"You said that it would be evil for God to require faith in Him and then stated that there's no way to prove He exists and you don't think seeing is believing,

so: If God appeared to you, you wouldn't believe, right?

Saying its evil to require faith is something we would just have to agree to disagree on. I don't see how its evil to require faith.

That's the idea. See, if I saw God face to face, I might believe that I'm really speaking to God, but then I'd have to beg the question, "How do I know that you are truly God and not just a dream or a delution of my own making?" If God responded "You Fool! Look at me, I'm freaking God and I'm right here in front of you! Believe in me or I'll throw you in hell." I could only respond "I only know that you claim to be God. The fact that you want be to believe in what I don't really know or or might reasonably not believe to be true is proof in itself that you are not God, but rather a dream or something worse."

If you settle on disagreeing with me on this point then you are throwing away the only point that I'm trying to convince you of. Expecting faith without proof is not Godly, it's irrational. Especially when it's being expected by men who claim to speak for God. You probably appeal to the emotion that you have been spoken to by God in some way through some feeling you've experienced before too. Look at your life and what appealing to emotions has gotten you. When you were young and felt like you should just rip a woman's clothes off and have sex with her right where she's standing, was it ever proof or even so much as evidence to you that you should do so? How much worse then is the appeal to your emotions when you consider someone you once thought you loved, or who you know loved you, but in the end love failed to be a guide as to what was really true or meant to be. Appeals to emotions and feelings are about as flawed as a gambling addict's appeal to superstition. This is why the appeal to logic is the only moral guide there is.

Logic and knowledge are great but they are not Wisdom.

You say there is no acceptable proof to you. Then you want proof.

If you're married you can only take it by faith that your wife loves you. There's no scientific proof for that sort of thing, and if seeing

her actions isn't believing, then what are you left with?

Love is not an emotion or a product of emotion. Love is something real, but it requires trust. Faith is trusting and relying upon someone or something.

You just described extreme lust with some emotions thrown in, what does that have to do with love?

Emotions are a product of genuine love, but you can still show love without emotions, or even when feeling a negative emotion.

My argument isn't that you shouldn't believe in anything, it's that you shouldn't act in ways that are wrongful if what you believe isn't true. In other words, you shouldn't base your morals on what you believe but rather on what you know. If seeing your wife love you is not proof of her loving you then what's wrong with having scepticizm in that? You have to ask yourself where things are going in any relationship, because if she leaves you, then you have to be ready to make due on your own. At the same time your actions will depend on her to a degree, but you don't need to rely on her or anyone to be telling you the truth at all times in order to be moral towards them. Jealousy, as it has been claimed that God can have, is an evil form of scepticizm, where your degree of scepticism loses its sense of rationality and you begin to make further assumptions without proof and act on them.

On that note you do have an odd argument to workout for yourself as a christian it seems. Do you believe that God can be selfish or overzealous or prideful? Take your pick of these words to argue against, because i find that if God requires your faith then he is showing all of these immoral values about himself. It should be assumed that any true God is greater and more perfect than anything that's immaginable correct? Under that assumption then, questions regarding God's limitations should be simple to answer: "Can God create a rock that's so heavy he can't lift it?" No, he can't because gravity is just to simple a thing for him to control and there's no point at which it would be out of his control to lift (or alter the velocity) of the rock in question. So then could God form a realm where he wouldn't be able to go? Possibly, I don't really know how his powers work, but it would be considerably possible that he has the ability to lock something away where he could never go. I'm sure even God enjoys a little life-like videogame once in a while and some skills like that might give him the chance to build a few area maps to have fun with. Back to where I was going with this; In the question "Could God do anything that is immoral?" I should think similarly, "If he could, then he's imperfect, and if he's imperfect to the point where I could imagine something better(at least in terms of morality), then I have no respect for him as a God and would accept a life of eternal suffering from him if it meant standing by that fact that he is immoral. So essentially if God is evil, then I just don't care. I refuse to give an evil God the satisfaction of my will and service to him. But then If God is perfect, and he must be so, then he would be altruistic and moraly pure.

Therefore, if I can imagine a more moral God than yours then the god you are proposing is not worth my belief in him. If you can agree with that then try to understand that a more moral God than the one you are proposing would be a God who does not require faith or worship towards him because such expectations are merely selfish, narcissistic, and irrational.

If God designed you for a loving relationship with Him then as I pointed out to you that relationship would require faith, because love does.

Edited February 8, 2007 by tdrehfal

[followerofjesus]

conviction is painful sometimes.

Sometimes you just need to stop beating yourself up.

I'm fine ,I will repent & I forgive in order to be forgiven. The sun will rise. The hands of time are on my side. Logic can be distorted to ones own pleasure.

[Observer of dreams]

Though something cannot be proven right or wrong, it does not mean that there is no right or wrong answer, most of the arguments I have heard here so far have been inductive reasoning and hold no water as to the validity of the beliefs. The beliefs, or non-beliefs in this case are not justified and therefore illogical.

Logic that is not based on facts is not logic. There is no such thing as distorted logic, only deception.

[followerofjesus]

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.'

The timecard will be punched soon.

"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.'

" All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

[followerofjesus]

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.