Just out of curiousity...

[tdrehfal]

Belief in the Christian God would require something that could only be ascribed to Him. So, if my pen were to float off my desk and then write out a chapter of the New Testament, that would make a believer out of me.

You know SV you had me convinced you were a real scientist until this silly floating pen post. You appear to be nothing more than one of the many atheist hacks that pass through this board. You demand proof that God exists yet if I demand of you that you prove to me that the physical universe is all that exists you will fail miserably.

You mentioned earlier your admiration and affection for your father who writes textbooks but can you prove to me that you truly love him? Of course you can

[SaturnV]

Would you say that God is not only omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscience, in other words, everywhere all the time, could be considered supernatural? He is the Almighty, higher power, Lord of All. I believe there are two types of supernatural. There is the God given supernatural. How did Jesus heal the sick, raise the dead, feed multitudes out of a loaf of bread and jug of water? How did Jesus survive, endure such agony, torture, ridicule and mocking, and still have the strength to carry the cross to Calvary? Yes, He came in the flesh as you and I though He was sinless and empowered by the Father. Good supernatural.

Then God gives great supernatural powers to the risen anti christ who will decieve multitudes, perform miracles, appear beautiful, as his 7 year reign upon earth. This is the supernatural used for evil and there are those who call upon it today in cults and their covert rituals. There is such evil in this world beyond our imagination but with the adversary, deciever, there will be such an evil. It begins subtly slowly and draws the lost in with empty promises and alluring lies. Then to seal the fate of those who follow, the mark of the beast be it a bar code or chip, who recieve this will find themselves in an eternity of hell along with satan. This is the broad road many follow today who are led by desires of the flesh. Unable to distinguish their wants from their needs and acting upon impulse. It is the narrow road few will follow that lead to the gates of Heaven.

One more point and that is psychics, fortune tellers, tarot readers, whatever you want to call them are presenting themselves as spirit filled and using Jesus as a path to lure one into a false sense of reality. Sure, they may have the ability to tell you things about you that will amaze and baffle you. I know this because before I was a Christian I went to a few out of curiosity. Recently I went to this one woman for reasons I needed to know, just as I have looked into other religions, cults, and such for knowledge. This woman, used Jesus in the "spiritual" sense, a false sense. To seek out the future is to have little trust in God who is in control. I was led to this woman by the Holy Spirit, protected by our Lord, to learn and this is only the beginning of the use of supernatural to decieve.

Like cults ( which I also experienced at one time ) they will not let go. A boyfriend at the time literally picked me up out of my chair as I was in an EST meeting and carried me out as I did not have the strength to do so on my own. They called for months until I had to change my number. EST by the way is a cult posing as self help in "training your mind" using methods Werner Ehrhart discovered and taught others to go out and give these three day "seminars." I believe he had to drastically take measures of protection as his life was threatened and ended up living on a yaght in the middle of the ocean. Scientology is another of many who come across religious and yet selfserving. If it is all about you and controlling your power, it is not of God.

Okay, so sorry for rambling but I guess this needed to be written and someone will read it and get the message the Holy Spirit is sending. Without the Holy Spirit, deception is inevitable. If it is not of God, it is of this world. I believe I was meant to experience these different "seasons" of searching and I am evidence that He was protecting me all along the walk of life as I roamed seeking answers. I've been on the other side and know now what is the Truth and what are lies. Beware of the lies.

Interesting post.

By being omnipresent and omnicient, any sort of God would have to transcend the natural Universe, and would therefore be supernatural by definition. Healing the sick with a mere touch, multiplying loaves, and turning water into wine are all impossible within the confines of the natural Universe, so if I were to witness such feats, and all naturalistic explanations were ruled out, belief in a supernatural cause would be the only possible explanation. From a Biblical perspective, Jesus was God Himself incarnated as Man. If Jesus fully God and fully Human at the same time, I suppose God could be defined as both fully natural and fully supernatural.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying in your second paragraph. Are you saying that the power of Satan and the Antichrist, who are the embodiment of Evil, had their power given to them by God, the embodiment of Good?

Tarot readings, fortune-telling, psychics, and the like all make supernatural claims, but they differ from cults in the sense that there is no formal leadership structure telling people what to believe. Psychics usually operate in a "freelance" sort of manner, and they exist solely to offer the quick and easy answers. I'm reminded of the parents of the boy in the US who was found alive after being missing for four years. His parents believed a psychic who told them their son was dead, and diverted the search for him. I can only imagine that a combination of profound despair and uncertainty led them to seek whatever answer they could find-even an empty and ultimately false one.

I think cults appeal to a similar human need for answers, as well as a need that some people have for control. Indeed, cults seem to exist solely to control the thinking of their members.

Don't get me started on Scientology. It is a cult, and one that makes the Raelians look downright rational.

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Edited February 10, 2007 by SaturnV

[cjrose]

Interesting post.

By being omnipresent and omnicient, any sort of God would have to transcend the natural Universe, and would therefore be supernatural by definition. Healing the sick with a mere touch, multiplying loaves, and turning water into wine are all impossible within the confines of the natural Universe, so if I were to witness such feats, and all naturalistic explanations were ruled out, belief in a supernatural cause would be the only possible explanation. From a Biblical perspective, Jesus was God Himself incarnated as Man. If Jesus fully God and fully Human at the same time, I suppose God could be defined as both fully natural and fully supernatural.

God is not just our Lord Jesus in the flesh but also the Holy Spirit so there again, one in three, the Holy Trinity. I like your verbage in reference to both God Himself and God in the flesh, fully human and fully God at the same time would be both natural and supernatural. However, though Jesus was born of a virgin birth and grew just like all human beings do, He was emodied with a sinless nature and the root purpose to come and preach the good news of salvation. He performed such miracles for a purpose and spoke of truths in parables to multitudes. His strength and endurance is beyond what any mortal man could endure not to mention the loss of blood. The blood of the Son of Man, sacraficed for all mankind. The ultimate sacrafice that paid for our sins if we seek Him and invite Him into our hearts giving over all control. The price He paid was our gain.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying in your second paragraph. Are you saying that the power of Satan and the Antichrist, who are the embodiment of Evil, had their power given to them by God, the embodiment of Good?

satan is the anti christ once unleashed to take his final power over the earth and God will give him great supernatural powers already knowing that he will use them to decieve many performing miracles for the sole purpose to gain trust in those that follow him. satan is bound at this time though his spirit roams the earth like the serpent, causing doubt, confusion, anything he can do to 1, turn Christians away from God or keep those not yet believers to further turn away from God either in rejection, denial, complete disbelief in any supernatural higher power, but he is not omni omni omni as God is and not everywhere always.

satan has power only because God allows it. satan will come to rule and ultimately destroy in a charming, attractive in appearance, cunning, self serving, prideful, powerful and essentially evil. In fact, look for a new post on "A Portrait of the Adversary" his character, work, all with scripture references and hopefully that will give you another perspective on satan and why God gives him such power.

Tarot readings, fortune-telling, psychics, and the like all make supernatural claims, but they differ from cults in the sense that there is no formal leadership structure telling people what to believe. Psychics usually operate in a "freelance" sort of manner, and they exist solely to offer the quick and easy answers. I'm reminded of the parents of the boy in the US who was found alive after being missing for four years. His parents believed a psychic who told them their son was dead, and diverted the search for him. I can only imagine that a combination of profound despair and uncertainty led them to seek whatever answer they could find-even an empty and ultimately false one.

This is true, however, working alone, for themselves and deceiving people and now using Jesus for their own profit isn't much different in the root existence as any cult organization. They are their own power, their own source for answers where cult organizations answer to one leader usually as from what I have seen, there is one to be accountable to in following the the order of the process to the letter. Like the food chain. Essentially, working alone to decieve for profit and self serving, or involved in a large group and also being decieved for a profit. In regards to the parents of the missing boy convinced by a psychic of such a tragedy is why the Lord commands us to stay away. For our protection.

I think cults appeal to a similar human need for answers, as well as a need that some people have for control. Indeed, cults seem to exist solely to control the thinking of their members.

Cults usually don't advertise Hey, Cult here, sign up today! What is appealing to those who seek answers for what they experience as an emptiness in their lives, are drawn into the attractive self power, self, self, self, self centeredness seeking a false teaching of our own power. Now, don't get me wrong, it is essential to come to know and love yourself as God loves you but not in the way of a self righteous, ambitious in a destructive way... I'm not explaining this very well but I hope you are with me here and I kind of sense that you are And then there are those others who are content in their successful achievements, happy in their personal relationships, believe their are gods in the elements, accumulate "things" put their trust and faith only in themselves with a pat on the back. Again, being successful and achieving goals is not wrong but admirable if along the way the prideful become the humble in the realization that their success can be used to help others instead of coveting "stuff" that will decay over time, get old, become replaceable, really insignificant.

Don't get me started on Scientology. It is a cult, and one that makes the Raelians look downright rational.

Okay I won't I can sense your aversion to it and I think that is putting it mildly What, Who are Raelians. That is one I have never heard of, ever.

Peace

[cjrose]

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Oh, I just noticed this part unless you were editing while I was taking forever to post my rambling replies yes, EST very scary but not at the time of being involved. At first it was empowering but like any untruth not of God, will eventually lose the power, the emptiness will return because it is a man made organization started with the idea of one man and developing it, refining it, and teaching his underlings to go out and get more people, somehow planting the notion that yes, it is costly for the seminar but do what you have to do to get the money to pay and then one continues to pay and pay and pay and not only with $$ but a false sense of self control. Seriously deceptive.

I never gathered that you were comparing religion to cults unless I missed some posts.

[cjrose]

I suppose if that if I was God, I might be able to prove God exists. I could still prove that I exist in that case, but I don't know how I could prove that I was God, or that I was the only one. I'd have to experience being God to find out if it's possible.

Belief is illogical, because Logic is about proving things. Prove to me how belief could possibly be logical and I might change my mind about yours.

I would really love to understand these statements. Maybe it's just lack of sleep or something but I can't make any sense here at all. Can you further explain your point?

[SaturnV]

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Oh, I just noticed this part unless you were editing while I was taking forever to post my rambling replies yes, EST very scary but not at the time of being involved. At first it was empowering but like any untruth not of God, will eventually lose the power, the emptiness will return because it is a man made organization started with the idea of one man and developing it, refining it, and teaching his underlings to go out and get more people, somehow planting the notion that yes, it is costly for the seminar but do what you have to do to get the money to pay and then one continues to pay and pay and pay and not only with $$ but a false sense of self control. Seriously deceptive.

It's really par for the course with cults. The most successful ones seem to be those that that give the greatest sense of empowerment or purpose. I studied such things a bit when I took psychology, and it's downright scary how people can be manipulated.

What, Who are Raelians. That is one I have never heard of, ever.

I'm surprised you never heard of the Raelians, as they were all over the news a few years back. They were pretty big in Quebec a few years ago, and they claim to have 60,000 members worldwide. Here's their statement of belief from their site:

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.

WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"

"You mistook us for gods"

"We were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

They basically think Mankind's destiny is to use human cloning to seed other planets, and therefore become Gods ourselves. No, I don't understand it either.

I added the bit in my edit there because I had a similar discussion before, and an overly sensitive type read things into what I said that weren't really there. Just figured I'd head any potential problems off at the pass

[tdrehfal]

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Oh, I just noticed this part unless you were editing while I was taking forever to post my rambling replies yes, EST very scary but not at the time of being involved. At first it was empowering but like any untruth not of God, will eventually lose the power, the emptiness will return because it is a man made organization started with the idea of one man and developing it, refining it, and teaching his underlings to go out and get more people, somehow planting the notion that yes, it is costly for the seminar but do what you have to do to get the money to pay and then one continues to pay and pay and pay and not only with $$ but a false sense of self control. Seriously deceptive.

It's really par for the course with cults. The most successful ones seem to be those that that give the greatest sense of empowerment or purpose. I studied such things a bit when I took psychology, and it's downright scary how people can be manipulated.

What, Who are Raelians. That is one I have never heard of, ever.

I'm surprised you never heard of the Raelians, as they were all over the news a few years back. They were pretty big in Quebec a few years ago, and they claim to have 60,000 members worldwide. Here's their statement of belief from their site:

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.

WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"

"You mistook us for gods"

"We were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

They basically think Mankind's destiny is to use human cloning to seed other planets, and therefore become Gods ourselves. No, I don't understand it either.

I added the bit in my edit there because I had a similar discussion before, and an overly sensitive type read things into what I said that weren't really there. Just figured I'd head any potential problems off at the pass

This is funny.

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth" - Really? So couldn't you have done without making us DIE? What a crappy design. My God tells me

its my fault I die, but you're telling me its YOUR FAULT. So explain your crappy designs or fess up that you made a mistake.

"You mistook us for gods" - It would've been a good idea for you not to pine yourself off as Gods. The simple statement "We're not gods" would've

been sufficient. Duh.

"We were at the origin of your main religions" Really? So you're creating multiple belief systems? Only thing can be the truth at at time.

Thanks for all the chaos and confusion.

"Now that you're mature enough..."

Yeah? So why didn't you help us mature by telling us that a) you're not gods, and b) not creating a bunch of belief systems, and c) why the heck did

you abandon us in the first place? You might also wanted to have warned us about the dangers of uranium enrichment and nuclear weapons.

You know what? You're full of crap.

Maybe on your planet someone came to you and tried to peddle this crap, and you fell for it, but here on earth, we actually have something called logic.

Go Home ET.

Edited February 10, 2007 by tdrehfal

[SaturnV]

^^

Consider that I compared Scientology unfavorably to those nutters, and my opinions on that "religion" should be clear.

[cjrose]

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Oh, I just noticed this part unless you were editing while I was taking forever to post my rambling replies yes, EST very scary but not at the time of being involved. At first it was empowering but like any untruth not of God, will eventually lose the power, the emptiness will return because it is a man made organization started with the idea of one man and developing it, refining it, and teaching his underlings to go out and get more people, somehow planting the notion that yes, it is costly for the seminar but do what you have to do to get the money to pay and then one continues to pay and pay and pay and not only with $$ but a false sense of self control. Seriously deceptive.

It's really par for the course with cults. The most successful ones seem to be those that that give the greatest sense of empowerment or purpose. I studied such things a bit when I took psychology, and it's downright scary how people can be manipulated.

What, Who are Raelians. That is one I have never heard of, ever.

I'm surprised you never heard of the Raelians, as they were all over the news a few years back. They were pretty big in Quebec a few years ago, and they claim to have 60,000 members worldwide. Here's their statement of belief from their site:

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.

WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"

"You mistook us for gods"

"We were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

They basically think Mankind's destiny is to use human cloning to seed other planets, and therefore become Gods ourselves. No, I don't understand it either.

I added the bit in my edit there because I had a similar discussion before, and an overly sensitive type read things into what I said that weren't really there. Just figured I'd head any potential problems off at the pass

This is funny.

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth" - Really? So couldn't you have done without making us DIE? What a crappy design. My God tells me

its my fault I die, but you're telling me its YOUR FAULT. So explain your crappy designs or fess up that you made a mistake.

"You mistook us for gods" - It would've been a good idea for you not to pine yourself off as Gods. The simple statement "We're not gods" would've

been sufficient. Duh.

"We were at the origin of your main religions" Really? So you're creating multiple belief systems? Only thing can be the truth at at time.

Thanks for all the chaos and confusion.

"Now that you're mature enough..."

Yeah? So why didn't you help us mature by telling us that a) you're not gods, and b) not creating a bunch of belief systems, and c) why the heck did

you abandon us in the first place? You might also wanted to have warned us about the dangers of uranium enrichment and nuclear weapons.

You know what? You're full of crap.

Maybe on your planet someone came to you and tried to peddle this crap, and you fell for it, but here on earth, we actually have something called logic.

Go Home ET.

Wait, hold on a sec and take a breath before you reply with ugly insults along with the choice of verbage. Saturn wasn't claiming that he adopted the Raeliens insanely ridiculous ( maybe drug induced the creativity of "Rael" like Hmmm Alice in Wonderland ) tale of such an experience and to actually have such a large and must say, lost, number of followers is baffling. I believe Saturn was answering my question on who are Raeliens. If your your reply is directly at him, I'd say an apology might be the mature thing to do. If your post is directed to these "Raeliens" then disregard. I would appreciate it though if you could clear it up either way with a pretty please to boot

[cjrose]

It's really par for the course with cults. The most successful ones seem to be those that that give the greatest sense of empowerment or purpose. I studied such things a bit when I took psychology, and it's downright scary how people can be manipulated.

Like you, I did some study of other religions, self help type "empowering yourself for success, be your own god, you're in control" type thing which led to more study regarding some of the more highly visible "religions" and do I dare name them, not at this time. That is a whole new topic for discussion in itself. Suffice it to say, some truly believe they are following Jesus when in the upper eschalon of senior members, what goes on behind closed doors is a completely different, cultish behavior so in essence, they preach to the congregation they call the church when really it is a huge lie and no, not going to mention this particular, renown, man made, world wide "religion." I would say I wanted to be ready should I cross paths with an individual and having some knowledge of what they are about. I have tons of books on cults, world religions and such. But that was when I was a baby in Christ. They have since gathered dust since the only truth I need is God's Word.

I'm surprised you never heard of the Raelians, as they were all over the news a few years back. They were pretty big in Quebec a few years ago, and they claim to have 60,000 members worldwide. Here's their statement of belief from their site:

I'm surprised too but I may have read something and from what I am reading about them is such nonsense that it was a fleeting thought, discarded out of sheer insanity.

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.

WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"

"You mistook us for gods"

"We were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

They basically think Mankind's destiny is to use human cloning to seed other planets, and therefore become Gods ourselves. No, I don't understand it either.

I added the bit in my edit there because I had a similar discussion before, and an overly sensitive type read things into what I said that weren't really there. Just figured I'd head any potential problems off at the pass

Wow... firstly, a red flag when talk of aliens from another planet claiming their ownership of the origin of life, secondly, I would imagine the Japanese would find that statement about an alien walking down a street in Japan and not being noticed, an insult to their integrity and intellect. I lived in Nagoya Japan for a little over three months. I lived and worked among them and why Japanese? Everywhere there are people of different cultures that immigrated from other countries from Japan to Africa, Vietnam, Europe, Mexico... you name it, we got it. I have dark hair and almond shaped eyes but the Japanese most definately noticed me thirdly and I repeat myself, even satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, walk in harmony and peace to lure many towards himself.

Another red flag here is that the guy used his own name for himself, I mean really, Rael, Rael-eins? This has got to be the top of desperation to gain power and be his own god in a sense by establishing his following. It is so nonsensical it's funny. This guy had to be on some serious LSD or something.

Thanks for info