Christian/Messianic

[butterfly]

http://www.acwitness.org/psalm83english.html

[Dad Ernie]

I love Messianic worship (Liberated Wailing Wall, Paul Wilbur, Lamb, Karen Davis, etc.).  I have a ring that bears the name of Jesus in the original Hebrew letters.  I have gained richly by attending the Passover services my church(es) have held - actually, I believe every Christian should participate in a Passover Sedar (sp?) at least once.  My church annually celebrates the Feast of Tabernacles.  Pentecost is actually one of the Jewish feast days (Feast of Booths, I think?). 

I, myself, would not "convert" to "Judaism" or "Messianicism" (?) because there is no need to.  However, my Christian life has been incredibly enriched by drawing into the life and culture of the religion originally founded by Yahweh to make His name known among the peoples.

It's not about "laws" or "traditons," it's about love.  I draw life out of integrating the "Jewishness" of the roots of my faith into my life.

Maybe think of it this way, we are the Bride of Christ, right?  Well, taking this from a woman's perspective, I find joy in absorbing myself into the things of the man in my life (interests, sports teams, etc.).  In the same way, I find joy in absorbing myself into the culture that Jesus was a part of.

Make sense?

Greetings Nebula,

I think you made perfect sense. I too love many of the customs and worship of the Messianic Jews. I do have a complaint about gentiles pretending to be Jews. I believe it is offensive, and I believe the Bible also thinks of them in that way:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

No one is going to tell me that these verses do not refer to ALL Jews but only TRUE Jews. God holds a very special place in His heart for Jews, and Jesus was especially commissioned to save them from their sins - which He WILL do.

I wish more churches would acquaint their parishoners with more Jewish customs, literature and music. Not by the Law, as you say, but in LOVE for the Jewish people.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

I too love many of the customs and worship of the Messianic Jews. I do have a complaint about gentiles pretending to be Jews. I believe it is offensive, and I believe the Bible also thinks of them in that way:

Now I'm really confused. If you were to keep the Passover does that mean you are trying to be a jew? Where do you make the distinction? Sabbath? Kipa? How much of the customs and worship of the Messianic Jews is "OK" and who decides? You? (a kipa might help cover that bald spot, bro!)

can you not see that traditions can be biblical, cultural, or even both?

As best I can discern from the scriptures, "biblical traditions" are those given by our Lord and the ones passed on to us by the Apostles in the book of Acts. To the Gentiles we find that we are not to be loaded up with the traditions of the Jews. But if you feel you must, then go ahead, just don't rely on scripture to support you.

The "tradition" of Passover goes back much further. The bible gives scant details about how it is done so the interpretation if left wide open. Who would you trust to give you a better idea of how this "tradition" has been carried on since the days of Moses? Would it be the Catholics, the Baptists? The Pentecostals or Church of Christ?

If I decide that the jews are the best source of knowledge for this "tradition" and observe the way they have kept this feast day for thousands of years....does that mean I'm trying to be jewish? That is what you seem to be saying here. Please clarify.

That seems uncharacteristically rude of you, dad. Maybe you have been hanging around with me for too long? 

But if obeying the Word of God makes someone jewish in your mind then so be it.

Now, please Yod, who is being katty?

ah yes....but that is not uncharacteristic of me

[Guest shiloh357]

Butterfly

http://www.acwitness.org/psalm83english.html

Thank you for the link. It is very moving.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

Let me first quote:

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do you see a pattern here? The OT is full of examples that are ONLY a shadow of what was to come and NOW are fulfilled in Christ. Do you follow now after Christ, or do you still trust in Moses? Have you considered this verse:

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

ADDED FOR CLARIFICATION:

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Herein Jesus is saying that the "least" (Himself) is GREATER than Moses & the Prophets. Even John was GREATER than they because he ushered in the parade to the Kingdom of God.

Don't these verses speak for themselves?

So again I reiterate:

Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I am currently doing a study of the usage of terms (Israel, Israelites, Jew, Jews, Jewish, Jacob, Israel) in the NT. There are around 300 of them and it may take a little time to complete my study. But consistently what I find are comments about various traditions that BELONG TO THE JEWS. Never, never, never are these TRADITIONS passed on to the gentiles. Why is that?

However, I see that Nebula's practice of acquainting himself with Jewish traditions is a useful tool to gain understanding. BUT they are not "practices" which are adopted as our Jewish brothers have adopted them. They are JEWISH traditions according to THEIR history. Our history begins with the cross.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

However, I see that Nebula's practice of acquainting himself with Jewish traditions is a useful tool to gain understanding. BUT they are not "practices" which are adopted as our Jewish brothers have adopted them. They are JEWISH traditions according to THEIR history. Our history begins with the cross.

HERSELF!! HERSELF!!!

I did notice the difference between the Passover Sedar done by the Lutheran church I grew up in and the one led by a Messianic (Jewish believer in Messiah Yeshua) pastor from a Messianic congregation.

But considering that that Feasts all have NT significances, I fail to understand why it would be "wrong" for a Gentile believer to participate in the practicing of them.

I think of it this way. In public shool, we have holidays for such things as President's Day, Martin Luther King Jr.'s B-day, and such. But all those days are to us are days off of school. They have no significance to us. We don't do anything with them. What's the use in having as special day to honor these men if we do nothing to honor them with it?

In our Christian walk, we can become forgetful or flippant in the things we believe in. Why not take the day to give them a bigger deal than we do normally?

Yes, our history begins with the Cross, but the significance of the Cross is birthed out of the Jewish Law. For instance, Jesus is called "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Can you call Him that outside of the Jewish Law/custom,tradition? What meaning does a lamb sacrifice over sin have in any other Gentile culture?

[Guest shiloh357]

Do you see a pattern here? The OT is full of examples that are ONLY a shadow of what was to come and NOW are fulfilled in Christ. Do you follow now after Christ, or do you still trust in Moses? Have you considered this verse:

With regard to the festivals, sabbath, these things were shadows relative to the first AND second comings of Messiah. If the argument that since Jesus has come, these have been fulfilled and should remain in the past, then there is a problem. God calls these things "memorials" in scripture.

Exodus 12:14

[Guest yod]

Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

this is ignoring the verse preceding where it says of these same gentiles who are coming to faith in the God of Israel;

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

There is a difference between a "burden" that is "necessary" and an order to cease and desist because it makes someone of the "synagogue of satan".

Don't you think they would have made a very strong rebuke of gentiles for celebrating the Feast Days if this were so? Church and biblical history proves that gentiles celebrated these Feast Days with the jews until it was outlawed by the RCC in 325 A.D.

I am currently doing a study of the usage of terms (Israel, Israelites, Jew, Jews, Jewish, Jacob, Israel) in the NT. There are around 300 of them and it may take a little time to complete my study. But consistently what I find are comments about various traditions that BELONG TO THE JEWS. Never, never, never are these TRADITIONS passed on to the gentiles. Why is that?

While you are at it go ahead and study the words "everlasting" and "the same law applies to the stranger and the alien among you" in the first 2/3rds of the Bible.

And please clarify which traditions you are talking about...

If you are saying that some traditions were specifically a sign between God and the jews then we agree.

But if you are saying that anything jewish is anathema...or that the Old Testament is abhorrent for gentiles then we disagree.

They are JEWISH traditions according to THEIR history. Our history begins with the cross.

again it depends on what traditions you are talking about.

Most of the jewish "traditions" are given to them from God (as opposed to christian traditions given to us by the RCC)

And my history begins with Adam...and anyone who claims the faith of Abraham goes back to there.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Would someone like to exegete this verse and tell of its application to ALL Christians?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

are you saying that the Feasts of God are "customs"?