How do you determine which NT-era books are authoritative?

[hatsoff]

I have heard that before. Of course I agree that I never had any "spirit" working inside of me, but that doesn't mean I was any more or less of a Christian than the folks who still call themselves so. However, your objection is noted.

[Leonard]

I studied the issues as they were argued at the Nicena-Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian Councils, and am quite satisfied with the process these great minds went through to choose the canonical Scriptures.

Frankly, of greater interest to me as an Psuche-iatros is helping you with what is best for your soul. This then--the reestablishment of your faith ought to be the main focus of our discussion. How would you say you came to 'lose your faith?'

[Floatingaxe]

I have heard that before. Of course I agree that I never had any "spirit" working inside of me, but that doesn't mean I was any more or less of a Christian than the folks who still call themselves so. However, your objection is noted.

No Holy Spirit = no Jesus Christ.

[hatsoff]

I studied the issues as they were argued at the Nicena-Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian Councils, and am quite satisfied with the process these great minds went through to choose the canonical Scriptures.

Did the fourth and fifth century councils chronicle their arguments? Most of what I have seen which came from then was limited to their conclusions, not the reasoning behind them. But I confess I am largely unfamiliar with those records.

[Leonard]

I studied the issues as they were argued at the Nicena-Constantinopolitan, and Chalcedonian Councils, and am quite satisfied with the process these great minds went through to choose the canonical Scriptures.

Did the fourth and fifth century councils chronicle their arguments? Most of what I have seen which came from then was limited to their conclusions, not the reasoning behind them. But I confess I am largely unfamiliar with those records.

Not in great detail. They just give us the gist of what the discussions were about. Seemingly it was fairly rancorous at times!

[Guest]

Jesus loves me

This I know

The Bible tells me so.........

A lot factors into it. Just to give you an example, the reason the cannonical books were accepted is that:

- for 300 years, the majority of churches had already used them

- by the end of the second century, heretics had already tried to "remove" these from the New Testament...all of this at the beginning of the second century

- They matched the descriptions of eye witnesses

- they fell in line with the Old Testament

The reason the Gospel of Thomas and others weren't accepted is:

- They weren't written until the end of the 3rd century

- They contradicted what was already accepted

- They contradicted the Old Testament

There are around 85 qualifying points, but I don't feel like typing them all up.

Since this is my thread, I should probably point out that most of the above quote is not true. However, I'd rather not get so off-topic this early in the thread.

So even though you admit to not having studied it, it's not true according to you? I'd much rather trust me, someone who has studied Church history, specifically the first three centuries, and quite in depth, than someone who ADMITS to not having studied it.

I'm shocked!

A question is asked.

The truth is given.

The truth is rejected!

Lies are published!

Tisk! Tisk!

I could almost believe the original question was a ruse.

Dear HatsOff you can be sure the correct epistles are included in The Bible!

All you'll need are eyes to see and ears to hear!

I know, I know!

You've heard it all before.

Because this thread belongs to Worthy and because Worthy belongs to Jesus.....

I'll repost it!

Dead! No hope?

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Ephesians 2:1)

Quickened? The dead now live?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:4-6)

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:15-16)

We are born again! We have new eyes to see and new ears to hear. Hear what? See what?

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" (John 15:26)

Oh this is too good! The Spirit will show us Jesus and The Spirit will speak to us of Jesus!

Now we are right back where we started from.

The real question, I think, was how do we tell that all of Word of God is real and complete?

With our new eyes to see and with our new ears to hear, we can finally study the Word of God.

Look here! It was right before our noises all the time.... Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"The same was in the beginning with God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:1-5)

Still Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:9-14)

Wow! The Word is all about The WORD! The whole Bible is all about The Lord Jesus Christ!

Want life? Want to see? Want to hear?

Cry to your Heavenly Father for Mercy!

Turn from your sins! Turn to The Way, The Truth and The Life

Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ!

Hosanna! Hosanna to The King!

Love, Joe

[hatsoff]

I'm shocked!

A question is asked.

The truth is given.

The truth is rejected!

Lies are published!

Tisk! Tisk!

I could almost believe the original question was a ruse.

Apothanein didn't answer my question; he went off on some other topic. I responded only because he gave a bunch of misinformation that I didn't want to let lie in my own thread. No pun intended.

[Leonard]

I'm shocked!

A question is asked.

The truth is given.

The truth is rejected!

Lies are published!

Tisk! Tisk!

I could almost believe the original question was a ruse.

Apothanein didn't answer my question; he went off on some other topic. I responded only because he gave a bunch of misinformation that I didn't want to let lie in my own thread. No pun intended.

So, hatsoff:

A very interesting transformation has taken place. First you 'didn't know' and now you are certain that AK's responses were misinformation! Pray tell us what deep scholarly truths you have uncovered in the last couple of days? Did you just earn that Doctorate?

[hatsoff]

My OP was misunderstood by a few persons, so I have clarified it. When I said that I didn't have the opportunity to investigate the canon prior to my deconversion, I didn't mean to imply I have not since corrected the situation. But the problem is I never got to see the Christian side of it as a result. That is why I asked the questions earlier.

So I am quite confident in my critique of Apothanein's claims. That requires no doctorate.

Edited February 13, 2007 by hatsoff

[Guest]

My OP was misunderstood by a few persons, so I have clarified it. When I said that I didn't have the opportunity to investigate the canon prior to my deconversion, I didn't mean to imply I have not since corrected the situation. But the problem is I never got to see the Christian side of it as a result. That is why I asked the questions earlier.

So I am quite confident in my critique of Apothanein's claims. That requires no doctorate.

Way to go HatsOff!

An amateur attack upon the Words of Life and a snub of scholarly old Apothanein.....

Your critique of God's Holy Word tastes just like another vain attempt to pull a neighbor's house off of The Living Rock, off of "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".

Heads up, floods coming!

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

"And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

"And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:24-27)

I was puzzled by the made-up word "deconversion".

It is not yet in the dictionary so I looked in God's Word.

Ah! There it is!

Oh my! It's a heart matter!

"A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it."

"And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture."

"And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it."

"And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

"And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?"

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

"And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:5-15)

No wonder you so desperately want these books slashed from the Holy Bible!

Way too much light!

Still time......

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people," (Luke 1:68)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (Johm 3:19-21)

Love, Joe