Drivers licence emerges as "crime fighting" tool

[buckthesystem]

So you feel that government should have the tools to violate others' rights because you don't "care about this kinda stuff" and you feel that you can trust the government never to make mistakes or abuse power even if the legality of this "power" is questionable.

How about getting back to me when you have spent time in jail, lost a great deal of money as a result, and possibly been beaten up in jail - maybe lost some teeth - because this particular sotware is notoriously unreliable? Yes, this happens quite a lot really. And don't expect the government to compensate you for any of this. You might have enough trouble performing the miracle of getting any of them to accept accountability, but liability - never!

I believe I have the "right" to serve God to the best of my ability based on what He has given me. I don't have the "right" to say what I want, because I am bound by my resposibility to God. The same goes for all the other so-called rights. American Christians are so spoiled. God has blessed me with the opportunity to serve His will in America, and part of that is to respect the government he has placed before me. If you were in China or Cuba I could spare you a little grief with the gov't.

How about some real-world stats on the number of people who are wrongly arrested because of facial recognition miscues, rather than a blanket statement used as a scare tactic. Better yet, back up the idea that many people "lose a great deal of money" or get regularly "beaten" in jail too. I'll bet those numbers are FAR LOWER than you suspect.

I am NOT scared of the gov't. My life is in God's hands. Do you realize how many Christians are beaten and jailed in this world simply for professing the name of Jesus? And you wanna worry about the ultra-slim chance of having your drivers license picture being recognized by facial recognition technology? I am simply not that worried about it...The bible clearly has a policy about not worrying about what 'might' happen tomorrow.

I find it very strange that you believe that you should "respect" the government, and that you believe that God has "placed the government before you". I think this is a very dangerous belief, why do you feel this way?

You only need to read about "face recognition technology" to see how unreliable it is. Why do you believe that it is so perfect as to never make mistakes? And if it does, you will never be involved in those mistakes?

The point is that any government has an incredible cheek thinking that it has the right, not only to demand people submit to a digital image of their face being on a government database just so that they can exercise their God given right to move freely about their own country, but that government has the right to "trawl" these images with face recognition software and compare them to police "mug shots".

Isn't this a bit of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude you have? The point is that you are here at the beginning and can stand up against this idea, your children and other descendents will not be.

[Guest man]

I find it very strange that you believe that you should "respect" the government, and that you believe that God has "placed the government before you". I think this is a very dangerous belief, why do you feel this way?

You should read your bible.

[Leonard]

Not an urban legend; these are folks I've known for 30 years or so. If you want to contact one of them go on the web and look up Jail House Lawyer. Many will probably pop up, but when you see one that has a picture of guy laying down on a jail bed, wearing a checkered shirt, and his face covered with a cowboy hat....THAT'S THE GUY.

The reason folks are still pulled over and ticketed, and pay them, is because they have NOT asserted their rights. courts will not generally tell you what your rights are, they will simply egregiously violate them, while your attorney, who is typically also WOEFULLY ignorant of the law, but VERY knowledgable about court procedures, will look on blankly, as if everything were being done properly.

In fact, one of these guys helped found JAIL FOR JUDGES, and has successfully put corrupt judges in prison.

Leonard...first I wanna apologize. I didn't realize you actually knew these people and it was not my intent to call you a liar or anything like that. I thought you were just relaying a story you'd heard...thats why I said it sounded like an urban legend.

Just for the record...JAIL4Judges has not put ANY judges in jail. It was resoundingly defeated by the state of South Dakota 89%-11%, in November. The people who run JAIL are pretty much thought of as conspiratorial wacko's. They have almost ZERO credibility. He was arrested for attempted burglary and served 6 days in jail, during which time he was unccoperative and was tased. You know these people?

I didn't see anything on the website that really stood out about drivers license law. I just spent about 2 hours reading over a unch of stuff on that site, and I disagreed with MUCH of it. He is obviously anti-police/law enforcement. I have a serious issue with that. He also claims to have the cure for Cancer, Heart Disease and other degenerative diseases. He is generous enough to sell the book to "members" for ONLY the cost of lab work. I saw no claims that he cannot be pulled over in Arizona while driving. It was more like reading a sales pitch with a bunch of liberty and freedom quotes thrown in.

More than anything, my impression of this guy is that he works to get guilty criminals out of jail. He finds some obscure technicality and runs with it wasting, who knows how, much gov't money with all his senseless appeals...just so he can get a murderer (its on his website), a DUI, an assault, etc...out of jail. It seems 50% of his website is devoted to selling his natural healing aids. I just don't get it.

Well your 'impressions' are all wrong.

Scott has indeed put judges in prison and for CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER (of him), along with police officers in Idaho caught talking on POLICE radio tapes, about how they were going to go about killing him.

No offence taken, I figured you just didn't see that I said I personally knew these guys.

By the way, you said "I could care less about things like this....." when you really meant "I COULDN'T care less...." which is the correct phrase. If you COULD care less, that means you DO CARE SOMEWHAT AT LEAST, if you COULDN'T care less, that means you do not care at all.

Everybody says it wrong these days! (Just one of my--many--crotchets.)

[Axxman]

Well your 'impressions' are all wrong.

Scott has indeed put judges in prison and for CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER (of him), along with police officers in Idaho caught talking on POLICE radio tapes, about how they were going to go about killing him.

No offence taken, I figured you just didn't see that I said I personally knew these guys.

By the way, you said "I could care less about things like this....." when you really meant "I COULDN'T care less...." which is the correct phrase. If you COULD care less, that means you DO CARE SOMEWHAT AT LEAST, if you COULDN'T care less, that means you do not care at all.

Everybody says it wrong these days! (Just one of my--many--crotchets.)

LOL...I enjoyed your explanation of my mistaken quote. Maybe subconsciously I do care a bit and it just came out on my keyboard...

Scott Thurston's site is the one I spent alot of time at. The J.A.I.L website didn't have anything about Scott on it, so I didn't see the association. The Jail4Judges legislation was beaten badly in South Dakota...what I should have said is that no judges have been jailed because of that legislation. However, it is possible that the people related to JAIL have had private success.

I just found Scott's website hard to navigate, and I couldn't find the specific things you had mentioned. I am really interested in finding out more about this ban on traffic tickets...I find that so hard to believe considering my law enforcement background. <---- thats the part where you understand why I say the things I say

[Axxman]

I find it very strange that you believe that you should "respect" the government, and that you believe that God has "placed the government before you". I think this is a very dangerous belief, why do you feel this way?

You only need to read about "face recognition technology" to see how unreliable it is. Why do you believe that it is so perfect as to never make mistakes? And if it does, you will never be involved in those mistakes?

The point is that any government has an incredible cheek thinking that it has the right, not only to demand people submit to a digital image of their face being on a government database just so that they can exercise their God given right to move freely about their own country, but that government has the right to "trawl" these images with face recognition software and compare them to police "mug shots".

Isn't this a bit of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude you have? The point is that you are here at the beginning and can stand up against this idea, your children and other descendents will not be.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Face recognition is in its very young stages...everyone agrees on that. I also don't believe that ONE person has ever been arrested because of facial recognition software. Lastly..and this is important...it is pretty much universally understood that this software is nothing more than a tool. This tool is not going to do anything except try and recognize faces. It will still be up to police to contact and verify the actual identity of suspects.

So you would rather a child molester roam freely on the streets...a murderer...a thief...a thug. What is the harm in adding a new tool to the shed? Are you also against fingerprinting? I can tell you that the government "trawls" through millions of fingerprints too. You should see the new technology. I am a livescan operator and it is pretty rare that a person doesn't marvel at the technology the first time they see it. New technology to keep us safer, and my children and their descendants.

I don't believe that worry about the future is productive or scriptural. Jesus told us not to worry about tomorrow because today has problems all its own.

[buckthesystem]

I find it very strange that you believe that you should "respect" the government, and that you believe that God has "placed the government before you". I think this is a very dangerous belief, why do you feel this way?

You only need to read about "face recognition technology" to see how unreliable it is. Why do you believe that it is so perfect as to never make mistakes? And if it does, you will never be involved in those mistakes?

The point is that any government has an incredible cheek thinking that it has the right, not only to demand people submit to a digital image of their face being on a government database just so that they can exercise their God given right to move freely about their own country, but that government has the right to "trawl" these images with face recognition software and compare them to police "mug shots".

Isn't this a bit of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude you have? The point is that you are here at the beginning and can stand up against this idea, your children and other descendents will not be.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Face recognition is in its very young stages...everyone agrees on that. I also don't believe that ONE person has ever been arrested because of facial recognition software. Lastly..and this is important...it is pretty much universally understood that this software is nothing more than a tool. This tool is not going to do anything except try and recognize faces. It will still be up to police to contact and verify the actual identity of suspects.

So you would rather a child molester roam freely on the streets...a murderer...a thief...a thug. What is the harm in adding a new tool to the shed? Are you also against fingerprinting? I can tell you that the government "trawls" through millions of fingerprints too. You should see the new technology. I am a livescan operator and it is pretty rare that a person doesn't marvel at the technology the first time they see it. New technology to keep us safer, and my children and their descendants.

I don't believe that worry about the future is productive or scriptural. Jesus told us not to worry about tomorrow because today has problems all its own.

You have become a victim of misconception and misinterpretation, quoting Romans 13. I have to wonder which government first put out the lie that this chapter refers to EARTHLY governments. Where the confusion has arisen is failure to distinguish between the nature of authority - government, and the personality of authority - the people presently incumbent in the offices of government.

You have fallen into the trap the deifys governments. This is a very dangerous assumption, as governments are made up of politicians and civil servants - men and women just like you and me. However, I will go further and say that most of these people are society's "misfits" because they cannot get "real jobs" like you and me.

Elsewhere in the Bible it is clear that while God has ordained kingdoms as a means of maintaining general order and justice, he himself is by no means impressed by many of those appointed to high office,

Hosea 8.4 for example, says:

"They set up kings without my consent, they choose princes without my approval. With their silver and gold they make idols to themselves to their own destruction".

The importance of Hosea is essential to understanding Romans 13. In the Hosea passage God is speaking through the prophet lamenting that the people "set up kings without my consent". Showing that it is possible for governments to exist who are not approved of by God.

This fits in with the Biblical concept of "free will" too. When a nation chooses a government that reflects its own values and desires and not God's, it is entitled to do so, but it becomes just another "nail in the coffin lid" of sin for the judgement day. Or, as Hosea says, "they make idols for themselves to their own destruction".

"We must obey God rather than men", said Peter in Acts 5.29. Jesus was nailed on the cross at Calvary because he "went against the government". Are you saying that he should have revered government and not done the thing he did, which he did all his life?

Also back in 40AD governments did not have in place massive social engineering policies, bankrolled by 50% taxes. Citizens then were not subjected to the same type of laws we have now. Anyone who was not already a slave would be horrified by things such as fingerprinting and face recognition technology, and assuming that everybody is a criminal or a terrorist until proven otherwise.

I don't know about you, well I guess you've just told me, but I feel very strongly that the only one I am truly accountable to is God - most certainly not government.

I've run out of time now, but I will get back to this tonight, as the rest of you post demands answers.

Remember, though, that we owe it to our children and their descendents not to impose false Gods on them.

[Axxman]

You sound so worried. I pray you find peace in this life. I look forward to reading what else you have to say about my comments. In the meantime...how is Hosea 8:4 in any way proof that God is not in control of gov'ts. First, Hosea is a VERY metaphorical writer. He often doesn't even string thoughts along in any sort of cadence (i.e. one thought is not related to the next.) What Hosea is describing is the very hand of God at work in setting up the leadership he desires. God had promised the leadership to the lineage of King David and the people revolted and tried to set up their own gov't by replacing Rehoboam (Solomon's son) with Jeroboam, a man of their chosing, outside the lineage of David. Here's were it gets a little tricky with Hosea. God appointed Jeroboam, yes the SAME Jeroboam that Hosea seems to imply God was clueless about. Well, if there is one thing we know about God, he ain't clueless. This is what the Lord told Jeroboam:

I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel. And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee, I Kings 11:37-38.

So what is Hosea rambling about??? You actually nailed it. Free will. Hosea was being a bit liberal with his writing style (as he is throughout Hosea.) Its not that God was clueless about Jeroboam's kingship...it was that it was not what God intended for His people. But God allowed it, and God actually gave Jeroboam free reign. What upset God so much in Hosea is that Jeroboam went and started worshipping false gods right away (golden calves).

If you read the next verse, Hosea 8:5, you will see that I am correct in linking the two.

Hosea 8:5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity?

As you can plainly see. God was in complete control and allowed the leadership that they had chosen. God was not blind-folded. He let them have their way and as soon as they messed it up, he put them back on course. God was always in control of the established gov't. As you correctly said (albeit for different reasons) Hosea 8 does have implications for Romans 13.

[buckthesystem]

You sound so worried. I pray you find peace in this life. I look forward to reading what else you have to say about my comments. In the meantime...how is Hosea 8:4 in any way proof that God is not in control of gov'ts. First, Hosea is a VERY metaphorical writer. He often doesn't even string thoughts along in any sort of cadence (i.e. one thought is not related to the next.) What Hosea is describing is the very hand of God at work in setting up the leadership he desires. God had promised the leadership to the lineage of King David and the people revolted and tried to set up their own gov't by replacing Rehoboam (Solomon's son) with Jeroboam, a man of their chosing, outside the lineage of David. Here's were it gets a little tricky with Hosea. God appointed Jeroboam, yes the SAME Jeroboam that Hosea seems to imply God was clueless about. Well, if there is one thing we know about God, he ain't clueless. This is what the Lord told Jeroboam:

I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel. And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee, I Kings 11:37-38.

So what is Hosea rambling about??? You actually nailed it. Free will. Hosea was being a bit liberal with his writing style (as he is throughout Hosea.) Its not that God was clueless about Jeroboam's kingship...it was that it was not what God intended for His people. But God allowed it, and God actually gave Jeroboam free reign. What upset God so much in Hosea is that Jeroboam went and started worshipping false gods right away (golden calves).

If you read the next verse, Hosea 8:5, you will see that I am correct in linking the two.

Hosea 8:5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity?

As you can plainly see. God was in complete control and allowed the leadership that they had chosen. God was not blind-folded. He let them have their way and as soon as they messed it up, he put them back on course. God was always in control of the established gov't. As you correctly said (albeit for different reasons) Hosea 8 does have implications for Romans 13.

You're pretty much right, I AM worried, worried about this attitude towards governments and God. As you seem to believe so strongly that God has placed governments where they are, and they are to rule over you, everything they do being "for your own good" with the full support of God, then you are setting yourself up for a fall on judgement day, and putting the rest of us in danger, when the antichrist's government rules the earth. Would you have argued the same things had you been around in Europe during the Nazi era, or in Stalinist Russia or in any of the other tyrannical regimes?

You can put your own interpretation on Bible passages as much as you like, but the facts remain: Jesus was not a supporter of the government of the day. He was very much a rebel. Just about everything he did reflected that fact. The other important thing to remember is "you cannot obey two masters". Therefore, you cannot obey God AND government, the two are diametrically opposed. No government exists which is not opposed to God.

So to face recognition technology: Sure, the technology is in its infancy, but that doesn't negate the fact that NOBODY on the DMV database gave their consent to be experimented on with this really silly idea. It is the height of arrogance to assume that government can use it's "captive" database like this. When you sat your driving test you did not give your consent for your licence "picture" to be used for "other purposes". As I said before, face recognition technology was - NOT VERY LONG AGO - highly illegal, why suddenly is it now "wonderful and acceptable"?

Face recognition tech. is rather like DNA profiling. The government got hold of a "new idea" and suddenly, although pretty unreliable, it takes on the "magic" properties of a "silver bullet" to solve all crime. Bureaucrats are wetting themselves with glee and getting excited at "how many criminals we can put away", and morality or privacy, or even basic human rights, doesn't come into it any more.

You say: Am I against fingerprinting too. Well, the short answer is: In the context of a massive database - yes, most certainly. Fingerprint "evidence" is also an incredibly unreliable "science". If you don't believe me, check out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2193058.stm

Your question: "So you would rather a child molester roam freely on the streets...a murderer...a thief...a thug." My answer, sure I would, rather than see a whole lot of innocent people jailed due to government arrogance and incompetence.

If you really think that by advocating face recognition software and the DMV database, you are making the world "safe" for your children and descendents, I rather fear that the legacy you will leave them with is no human rights as we now know them, no privacy whatsoever, and the constant fear that they will end up in jail due to "some dumb bureaucrat not doing their job properly".

[Guest man]

You can fight this all day everyday but it's still going to happen.

It wasn't too long ago that the idea of cameras everywhere sounded stupid.....but they're there.

Cameras at intersections....nobody wanted them...but they're there.

It's technology.....you can't stop it. You can scream as loud as you want, but it's still going to happen.

The end is coming and in order for it to get here, things gotta go bad...very bad.

Hard times are coming and all this new technology is going to play a part in it. You can't stop it.

All you can do is get right with God and warn those who will listen about the things to come.

Don't let the cares of this world steal that which has been bestowed upon you by God. It's not worth it.

[Axxman]

You're pretty much right, I AM worried, worried about this attitude towards governments and God. As you seem to believe so strongly that God has placed governments where they are, and they are to rule over you, everything they do being "for your own good" with the full support of God, then you are setting yourself up for a fall on judgement day, and putting the rest of us in danger, when the antichrist's government rules the earth. Would you have argued the same things had you been around in Europe during the Nazi era, or in Stalinist Russia or in any of the other tyrannical regimes?

I firmly believe that God allows certain gov't for certain reasons. I believe God allows communism, I don't know why, but he does. The same way He allowed Pharoah to rule over His people the Israelites. God admittedly hardened Pharoah's heart so that He could show His power. I don't always understand why God allows the things He does...but I am quite certain he allows it. I also NEVER said that "everything they do is for my own good." Thats simply not true. I don't think Social Security is run for my own good. I don't think the tax system is run for my own good. But I DO THINK that I am obligated to obey the system that God has put me in.

Romans 13:5,6 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience