WN: Bill Introduced to Criminalize Many Parents Who Spank - Worthy New

[Axxman]

Hebrews 12:7-11 7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Hi Emily...

Is it mere coincidence that the verse you picked made the implication that discipline is supposed to be "painful?" While I won't go so far as to say its a bad translation of the intended meaning...but painful doesn't have to mean physical pain.

The greek word for "painful" in this case is "Lupe" (strong's #3077.) We're not talking physical pain, but rather "sorrow" or "grief."

These are beautiful verses about Gods interaction with us in a nurturing and instructive way. It is to give us hope that although God does set us straight from time to time...don't lose hope because there is a greater purpose in it. I can see NO WAY that a person could use this scripture to condone physically hitting their child.

[Axxman]

Hi Axxman

Here is some clarification for you concerning the orginal Hebrew/Greek interpretation of rod:

Pro 22:15 Foolishness200 is bound7194 in the heart3820 of a child;5288 but the rod7626 of correction4148 shall drive it far7368 from4480 him.

H7626

שׁבט

shêbeṭ

shay'-bet

From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: - X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.

Thanks! I gotta believe that its just coincidence that the words "a stick (for punishment..." are the leading definition of your lexicon,

The "shebet" is used a mere 140 (out of 190) times to mean tribe...and not always figuratively, but literally. I've glanced through the uses of the word and I'm not sure in which case a "stick" is approporiate.

The ONLY use of the term that even comes close to being described as an instrument for hitting is the "club" usage, which refers to a sheperds weapon to scare off preditors or defend the flock from harm. In no way, is the club an instrument of "loving correction." Like David said "thy rod (the defensive weapon) and thy staff (the instrument of guidance) they comfort me."

Again, there are various meanings for the rod of correction...why do Christian parents insist on picking the meaning that says "hit your kids."

[Emily~Anne]

Hi Axxman

Here is some clarification for you concerning the orginal Hebrew/Greek interpretation of rod:

Pro 22:15 Foolishness200 is bound7194 in the heart3820 of a child;5288 but the rod7626 of correction4148 shall drive it far7368 from4480 him.

H7626

שׁבט

shêbeṭ

shay'-bet

From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: - X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.

Thanks! I gotta believe that its just coincidence that the words "a stick (for punishment..." are the leading definition of your lexicon,

Again, there are various meanings for the rod of correction...why do Christian parents insist on picking the meaning that says "hit your kids."

Maybe because it is biblical

You are free to believe what you want I like the biblical way...

When I was a child growing up on the farm, when I was disobedient and rebellious, my parents would grab a small branch from the tree and swat me across the butt. It was called discipline and spanking. I was never abused. I learned that my parents loved and cared for me enough to discipline me when I deserved it. I learned to respect my parents instructions and to not rebel against them, unlike what is happening to the youth in our generation because for the most part, parents are too preoccupied to take the time their children need. Children are very rebellious in the various age-continuium growing process groups, and need discipline. It is the way of human nature and is built into all children. That is why God designed and instructed godly discipline and spanking. Today's way to hanle a rebellious child is to drug him by giving him a pill such as ritalin on a daily basis, and we have a culture of drug addicted children.

Parents neglect and abuse their children by not disciplining them today in the way that that God instructs, which is the worse form of abuse. They grow up without knowing godly respect for others and loving discipline in a godly way.

This is not God's way, as the scripture shows.

AMEN!

[Emily~Anne]

I just want to say though, I do hestitate to take too much of a stand for spanking on public forums cause we have no idea who is reading this. That is why I have said so little myself. Many parents may take it the wrong way and spank incorrectly. There are some things very important to make sure of when spanking a child, never spank in anger (time outs are for parents too and our kids know that), and when spanking, be sure to also take the time to reason with the child in a calm manner. (Wait until the child is reasonably calm though or your reasonings will fall on deaf ears) Stay connected to the child throughout. After the situation is over, be sure to give your child a hug and tell them how much you love them. Spankings should never leave a mark beyond a temporary redness that lasts only a minute. I think some parents are better off not to spank at all, at least not until they receive some mentoring on the issue. Some parents were beaten horribly as children, and may feel too much of that anger seething up as they spank ther children. This is very dangerous. A child must see that parents have self control over their own anger or parents are at great risk of losing the child's respect can cause many problems in the parent/child relationshp.

Not all negative behaviours need to end in spanking. Sometimes there may be a better consequence that fits the crime better. For example, if your child keeps leaning back in his chair, take away the chair and make him stand for the rest of the meal. If the kids keep arguing over a toy or play set, calmly and matter of factly take the toy away from both children altogether. If a child has a huge fit, have them sit in 'quiet time' until they are ready to be quiet. If a child outright screams right at me, then I administer a spank. Spanking around here is reserved for outright nasty attitudes. Even then, we do the 'look' first and usually that quiets them up real quick.

It is highly presumptious of people to assume people who spank for biblical reasons are 'looking' for a way to justify spanking. If a person enjoys spanking their children, they should not be spanking them at all. I for one dont enjoy spanking my children and for years tried so hard to worm my way around what scripture was clearly telling me to do. We have 2 children now. With our second child, I reflect back on the mistakes I made with our first and I cringe that I let him get away with so much and run the show. Fortunately we know better now. We also expect discipline with a good attitude, otherwise it counts as complete disobedience around here. Consistency is so important, otherwise it is not fair to the children.

A positive discipline technique---->when your child does something well, not only praise your child directly, but let your child 'accidentally' overhear you telling your spouse a praise about the child. This encourages the child greatly and will reflect in their behaviour.

[Guest LadyC]

i was never abused. but boy, i was spanked many times! and i gotta say this... i think that it's far better for a child to learn to avoid acting in ways that will result in a painful lesson than for them to learn they can behave however they want because there are no serious consequences.

the pain of a spanking is temporary. and it beats the pain of life in prison. boundaries aren't supposed to be pleasant.

that's something my mom understood (she administered most spankings.) my father, bless his soul, was more of a punishment by grounding sort of person. i loved being grounded. it gave me the opportunity to read without interruption. it wasn't painful, and it didn't teach me anything. it was like a vacation from all my friends, and sometimes i desparately needed those little vacations.

[Emily~Anne]

Lady C you are right, your post made me think of an ex boyfriend I was with for 6 years. His mother totally lacked a spine as a parent and never disciplined her kids. She just rolled her eyes then rescued her kids from whatever predicament they were in. She continues to do this for them as adults. 4 of her 6 kids are in and out of jail regularly and she does all she can to keep them out of jail. They can always count on their mama to bail them out. I begged her to stop doing that, but she wouldn't. Our oldest is the biological child of her son, and we had his parental rights terminated because by the time Tyler was 7, he had already spent more than half of Tyler''s life in prison. What she did to her kids is almost the meanest thing you can do to your kids.

Some parents spank totally wrong though. They are inconsistent and spank out of anger. This needs to be cautioned against as much as allowing your children to run amok without any discipline.

[Guest LadyC]

true, some parents do spank totally wrong. but even those who 'administer the rod' incorrectly do their children a favor as long as they aren't beating them.

i have a friend who doesn't spank, at least not very often. instead she yells and screams and belittles her children. and THEN she wonders why they treat her with such disrespect. gee, i wonder. THAT kind of discipline is far more hurtful and damaging than any spanking.

my ex-husband had a brother who died at the age of 32 from cirrhosis of the liver. no matter how many times he went to rehab, whenever he would come out, his mother would feel sorry for him. not wanting him to suffer the pain of withdrawing, she would go buy him nyquil by the case. (that was back in the days when you COULD buy OTC medications in mass quantities... and back when nyquil still had alcohol in it. i'm not sure if it still does or not.)

all that pain she spared him didn't prevent him from suffering when he was hemmoraging through every orafice in his body the night he died.

people often miss the point. discipline, even physical discipline in the form of spanking, is a LOVING thing to do. hopefully the parent is wise enough to make sure that the child recognizes it as loving, at least at some point. NO kid is going to think it's loving when they are getting their butt swatted.

[Emily~Anne]

True, some parents do spank totally wrong. but even those who 'administer the rod' incorrectly do their children a favor as long as the aren't beating them.

I have a friend who doesn't spank, at least not very often. instead she screams and belittles her children. and THEN she wonders why they treat her with such disrespect. gee I wonder. THAT kind of discipline is far more hurtful and damaging than any spanking.I so totally agree! She is harming the childs self esteem and being a very poor role model on self control. Screaming is just wrong. Do it enough and your kids will just get used to it and ignore the screaming. Parents need to get off their lazy rear ends and approach the child, look them in the eye and tell them what they did was wrong and that we will have to administer a spank. All spankings should be combined with calm reasonings. I have the child also explain to me what was wrong with what he did, and we pray with him, then hug.

my ex-husband had a brother who died at the age of 32 from cirrhosis of the liver. no matter how many times he went to rehab, whenever he would come out, his mother would feel sorry for him. not wanting him to suffer the pain of withdrawing, she would go buy him nyquil by the case. (that was back in the days when you COULD buy OTC medications in mass quantities... and back when nyquil still had alcohol in it. i'm not sure if it still does or not.)

all that pain she spared him didn't prevent him from suffering when he was hemmoraging through every orafice in his body the night he died.Amen it is not love to hold their hands on the path to broad destruction.

people often miss the point. discipline, even physical discipline in the form of spanking, is a LOVING thing to do. hopefully the parent is wise enough to make sure that the child recognizes it as loving, at least at some point. NO kid is going to think it's loving when they are getting their butt swatted.Our oldest is old enough to understand we spank because we love them and we care very much what kind of people they turn out to be. His biological father (refer to my last post) has been a very beneficial lesson in this area in showing what happens when a parent fails to discipline.

[apothanein kerdos]

Hi!

I think this is more of a cultural thing. Years ago it was acceptable to 'belt' your children, while that is now viewed as an abusive action, and with good reason! Yet spanking was still somewhat accepted.

Now spanking is on trial. I have to say, it makes sense to a point. It is physically hitting a child in order to instil certain behaviors. I think it would also depend on how hard a child is being spanked. If they are just getting a light slap on the bottom I don't think it would be as big of a deal, but if a mother/father goes at it and really gives it to a child, I can see it as abuse for sure.

How is using a belt abusive? A belt was used on me, and I thank God everyday that it was. I still had a rebellious youth, but because of discipline at a young age, I was able to accept correction when it came my way. A belt is God's gift to men to keep their pants up and their children in line.

Secondly, as Butero pointed out, it is highly Biblical to spank your children.

Third, the government has no right to come into my house if I am not causing permanent and severe damage to my children.

Couldn't the 'rod' spoken of in these passages represent reprimand and punishment in general? I don't think physical hitting is necessarily the only thing that passage is talking about. The "rod" represents correction and chastisment of all sorts, be it spoken punishment or physical punishment.

No. It couldn't mean that.

Well, then why not hit our children with rods instead of spanking them? That seems more biblically in tune.

Good question. Use a paint stick on the bottom.

The entire act of spanking a child is to negatively associate poor behavior with pain. It doesn't matter what instrument is used, or how it is done, or the extent of the pain, the physical act intends to do this. Similarly, the same effect can come from verbally shaming a child for his/her actions, and you wouldn't have to lay a hand on the child.

They aren't mutually exclusive, do both.

I'm all for spanking kids - if the government wants to make a law about spanking, they should make it mandatory.

And don't try to say, "What about if it leads to abuse?" I would know, I was abused as a child (verbally and physically). At the same time, I also see how discipline works, and as I've grown I've looked at my experience in a rational way and I've been able to separate the good from the bad. I know this because my dad did it right sometimes, and sometimes he got it wrong (I'd say picking your child up by his neck and putting him against the wall is a bit excessive), but the point is, I learned from when it was done correctly.

[Axxman]

Maybe because it is biblical

You are free to believe what you want I like the biblical way...

When I was a child growing up on the farm, when I was disobedient and rebellious, my parents would grab a small branch from the tree and swat me across the butt. It was called discipline and spanking. I was never abused. I learned that my parents loved and cared for me enough to discipline me when I deserved it. I learned to respect my parents instructions and to not rebel against them, unlike what is happening to the youth in our generation because for the most part, parents are too preoccupied to take the time their children need. Children are very rebellious in the various age-continuium growing process groups, and need discipline. It is the way of human nature and is built into all children. That is why God designed and instructed godly discipline and spanking. Today's way to hanle a rebellious child is to drug him by giving him a pill such as ritalin on a daily basis, and we have a culture of drug addicted children.

Parents neglect and abuse their children by not disciplining them today in the way that that God instructs, which is the worse form of abuse. They grow up without knowing godly respect for others and loving discipline in a godly way.

This is not God's way, as the scripture shows.

You know...this reply would be all well and good if prisons weren't full of people who were spanked. It makes God, and the bible, look real stupid when you say...spanking is the ideal biblical form of punishment. Really?? Then why do some kids who are spanked become evil, and some kids who aren't grow to be responsible adults? Is it possible that the bible is wrong...or is it MORE possible that you are wrong.

As I said before...my mother was never hit by her parents and she grew to be a wonderful mother who raised solid kids. My dad was spanked and he beat the holy crap outta me and my mom at least once a week (until he found Christ.) Kinda puts a damper on scripture reading it the way you do. How is the above scenario played out everyday if spanking is supposed to be the ideal punishment?

Disclaimer: Obviously, some spanked kids turn out very well, and some unspanked kids are evil. The point is the inconsistency of results by translating the bible the way pro-spankers do.

I mean, if you apply the same narrow-mindedness to other parts of scripture you could just as well justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide