WN: Bill Introduced to Criminalize Many Parents Who Spank - Worthy New

[Emily~Anne]

Ya know my ex boyfriend who is the biological father of our son spent more than half of our son's life in prison by the time our son was 7 yrs old. Finally they terminated his parental rights and my husband adopted him. Guess what? My ex was never spanked...

[CaritateDei]

I gotta say, California, New Zealand, and any proponent of this bill is a little moronic.

Name a single successful, famous business person or CEO.

Guess what? They were probably spanked. I read it in a book. Interesting stuff. Discipline your kids, they will maintain successful disciplining of their own lives.

[Kabowd]

You know...this reply would be all well and good if prisons weren't full of people who were spanked.

This statement not only uses poor logic, but is also misinformed. Prison is also full of people who ate cereal for breakfast as a child, or people who were bathed as a child. Does this mean feeding your children Fruit Loops or giving them baths might preordain them for incarceration? Drawing conclusions or making erroneous connections is an attempt to devalue the importance of discipline. It's no surprise that Clinton is supporting this, he is the king of doing whatever it takes to avoid consequences for bad behavior.

What are your sources for making this statement anyway? Wikipedia? Google? Anti-spanking websites? The majority of people who speak out against spanking use logically fallacious arguments to come to their conclusions. Not only that, but those who make the claim that spanking leads to criminal behavior are not educated in forensic psychology or criminal justice. Furthermore, many of the leading criminal psychologists have recently produced research expressing doubt that children who are abused are more inclined to become criminals. There are numerous factors involved, but targeting spanking as a primary reason (or even a minimal reason) for criminal behaviour is laughable.

Also, even though it could be argued whether or not abuse in childhood produces violent criminals, this has no bearing on the biblical concept of spanking. The idea of biblical discipline and spanking should not be put into the same category as abuse, beating, punching, etc. Therefore, even the argument stating that abuse produces criminals does not apply to this issue because what is being presented is loving discipline and correction... not beating or abusing a child.

It makes God, and the bible, look real stupid when you say...spanking is the ideal biblical form of punishment. Really?? Then why do some kids who are spanked become evil, and some kids who aren't grow to be responsible adults? Is it possible that the bible is wrong...or is it MORE possible that you are wrong.

First, as I just stated, even leading forensic psychologists disagree with one another on whether or not abuse produces criminals. Even if could be proven, again, spanking as it is being advocated here (biblically) DOES NOT equal abuse. Secondly, you're viewing this pragmatically instead of viewing it through a Christian worldview. We don't hold to the biblical truths because they appear to "work", or disregard them because we don't see their benefits. We hold to the biblical truths because they are TRUE and because this is how God has instructed us to behave. Third, it would be much more accurate to state that criminal behavior is the result of children who were never disciplined than it would be to state that excessive punishment (or spanking) caused this behavior. The majority of people who end up committing violent crimes experienced neglect to some degree or another. Consequently, they never learned to distinguish between right and wrong behavior because they lacked the guidance, and this has led to countless people (juveniles and adults) who have no empathy for anyone outside of themselves and experience no remorse for what they've done. There is a disconnection, a detachment, most likely because many criminals never bonded with anyone who showed them love, guidance and affection early on. Even so, these factors still do not provide an excuse for criminal behavior. There is a vast number of individuals who experience abuse or neglect to one degree or another who NEVER become criminals or abuse others. No matter what our influences past or present, sin is always a CHOICE.

As I said before...my mother was never hit by her parents and she grew to be a wonderful mother who raised solid kids. My dad was spanked and he beat the holy crap outta me and my mom at least once a week (until he found Christ.) Kinda puts a damper on scripture reading it the way you do. How is the above scenario played out everyday if spanking is supposed to be the ideal punishment?

Disclaimer: Obviously, some spanked kids turn out very well, and some unspanked kids are evil. The point is the inconsistency of results by translating the bible the way pro-spankers do.

Again, you're viewing this pragmatically, instead of biblically. Also, your personal experience appears to have skewed your view to the point you seem unable to view this objectively.

I mean, if you apply the same narrow-mindedness to other parts of scripture you could just as well justify slavery, suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide

[Oh Hamburgers!]

As has been said before, I would like to make a distinction. I am SUPPORTING discipline of children. Discipline is necessary to mold a child, and to show the right from wrong. But I am AGAINST actually hitting children. It just seems like common sense to me; raise a child with verbal punishment, and they will grow up learning that arguements can be settled with words. Raise a child with spankings and pain, and they will grow up learning that it is ok to use force when in a disagreement.

I don't see why people demand the ability to hit their children as a form of punishment. There are much less violent ways.

[Guest LadyC]

if any individual is not able to distinguish spanking from beating, then by all means, that person should NEVER use physical discipline.

those that understand HOW to spank properly should not be condemned nor criticized for it, nor should they be legally prohibited from it.

[Axxman]

You guys are a tough crowd.

My "Prisons are full of spanked kids" comment was NOT a statistical fact (or I woulda posted it.) My entire post was a way of showing that spanking leads to inconsistent results. Spanking doesn't lead to prison any more than candy bars do (or fruit loops.) The point is that using pain compliance is not a fool-proof way to get results...sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

I had written about 3 more paragraphs..but decided against it. I was afraid I was sounding judgemental, and I don't intend to. I think we should all do whatever the Holy Spirit guides us in...which I hope we all do. I really dislike spanking, I think there are other Godly options.

I will support anti-spanking laws based on what I believe God's word would have me do.

Peace.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Axxman

[Guest LadyC]

no, spanking doesn't lead to inconsistent results... inconsistent methods of spanking leads to inconsistent results.

I will support anti-spanking laws based on what I believe God's word would have me do.

so, if you lived in the same state i live in, you'd support outlawing my right to spank my children based on what i know God's word indicates? God's word is very clear on this matter. you may disagree that God's word would have you spank, but God's word certainly tells us to use physical discipline. are you really saying you would vote to prevent people from following God's word just because some people don't know how to spank properly, and because you have an emotional aversion to the whole issue of spanking?

[Emily~Anne]

As has been said before, I would like to make a distinction. I am SUPPORTING discipline of children. Discipline is necessary to mold a child, and to show the right from wrong. But I am AGAINST actually hitting children. It just seems like common sense to me; raise a child with verbal punishment, and they will grow up learning that arguements can be settled with words. Raise a child with spankings and pain, and they will grow up learning that it is ok to use force when in a disagreement.

I don't see why people demand the ability to hit their children as a form of punishment. There are much less violent ways.

If my kids grow up understanding the proper biblical method of spanking, GOOD! Praise the lord! People say by spanking we are teaching our kids to hit. So does that mean when we put our kids in time out we are teaching them it is Ok for them to put us in time out? Of course not! So that argument makes no sense! Children are to be kept under the safety of our authority. The world seems to have this concept that there is a way to raise good kids without parents being in authority. Alternative discipline methods will only go so far. When our oldest was 5, he spent 2 weeks in public school before we pulled him out. He acquired some of those 'lovely socialization skills' children often pick up in public school. When he didn't get his way, he would make a 'mean face'. Highly disrespectful! He'd be sitting in time out making his 'mean face'. Me and my husband were being made a joke out of. I consulted a dear Titus Two woman from church and set up a time to visit her. We sat down together and I told her what we were going thorugh. She has 7 boys, most grown and all successful. She has been such a help in teaching me about the difference between proper biblical spankings, and how the world thinks a real spanking should be. An undesirable behavor is so much easier to nip in the bud if you take care of it in an effective way the first time. If we would have spanked our son the first time he was disrespectful, we probably only would have had to spank him once for that behaviour. Since we let the problem go on a couple months not knowing what to do, we had to spank several time for the same offence before he stopped. Some parents think it is better to ground their kids. Right now for our 9 and 3 yr old we dont want to send a message to them that we don't want to be around them.

[Guest LadyC]

So does that mean when we put our kids in time out we are teaching them it is Ok for them to put us in time out?

good point... one that is worth elaborating on.

if a parent HITS their child, in the face, in the arm, in the stomach, whatever, you're teaching your child that when he's angry, he should be violent and hit someone else in the face, arm, stomach, whatever.

but when a parent SPANKS on the butt, properly, you're NOT teaching your child to strike another person in anger, your child is learning that a "spanking" is a method of discipline, not a method of violence. the child learns that a spanking on the butt, properly given, is very different than angry abuse.

not many children get mad at other kids and tell them to bend over for a spanking, because they understand that this is a form of discipline, not an angry, kneejerk reaction.

[apothanein kerdos]

I will support anti-spanking laws based on what I believe God's word would have me do.

I will continue to oppose anti-spanking laws based on what God has told me personally through the Holy Bible. That is a much more sure way of knowing it is God, as opposed to personal feelings.

Exactly.

However, and this is not to disagree with you, but instead to emphasize your point - even if we rely on personal feelings, I surely hope God would command spanking. The reason is that it shows hard discipline and teaches a child at a very young age that there can be negative physical consequences for negative actions. When done properly, it is an act of love. It is telling the child, "I love you so much, that I'm willing to cause you slight pain now, so you do not bring major pain on yourself in the future."