Why Do You Believe What You Believe?

[eric]

atheists and the like will give hundreds of reasons why they wouldn't believe, but I can't give one reason why I shouldn't believe, based on my own relational experieces. No one without the attributes of a triune God could turn me from what I was at sixty and make me believe that is was it was coincidence. My encounter with the Lord Jesus. 20 years ago was nothing more or less than miraculous.

But then again we are all different, but if you don't believe in miracles, then there's a fairly good chance that you don'e really belive in God. Only twice has a little doubt crossed my mind, but disappeared as quickly as it came when I confessed it and repented of it. JMHO.

[hupo]

Faith is only relevant when you don't know because if you do know, there is no need for believing, is there?

Not true. This is not a biblical definition of faith at all. Faith has reasons behind it. It must have reasons or it isn't true, biblical faith.

Well, to simplify it I'll say, God cannot be known. If God could be proved, it wouldn't be God.

Just to clarify things, by "knowing" I mean the logical type, with facts and figures.

One can know God in one's heart but not in one's head.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

So, the reasons that faith "must" have, what would they be?

[Kabowd]

Well, to simplify it I'll say, God cannot be known. If God could be proved, it wouldn't be God.

Just to clarify things, by "knowing" I mean the logical type, with facts and figures.

One can know God in one's heart but not in one's head.

Again, this isn't biblical

We are taught in Scripture that we should love God with all of our hearts, souls and our minds (Matt. 22:37). God created our minds and gave us the ability to use logic and reason. Nowhwere in Scripture are we taught that faith is a "leap" into the area of non-reason. Remember that faith requires trust. In order to trust, one must first have the knowledge of truth. In order to have the knowledge of truth, one must first have the capability to determine what is true and what is false. This requires the use of logic. Logic does not mean we understand everything or comprehend everything. Instead, logic is the means or the tool by which we pursue understanding.

Here is a topic where this was discussed in more depth that may help you:

God is Logical?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

This verse actually helps prove my point

First, notice it says faith is the "assurance". The Greek word is hupostasis , and some translations may say "substance" because it gives the idea of something solid or firm like a foundation. Second, notice the word "conviction". The Greek word used here is elegchos, and it literally means "proof" or "evidence" (something that can be proven), for instance evidence presented in a court of law. This verse is not suggesting we are to have a "blind" faith. Just because something isn't seen with the eyes does not mean it doesn't exist. A common example of this is the wind. We know that wind exists, not because we see it, but because we see the evidence of it and how it affects other things we do see. I recently went to visit Biloxi/Gulport and saw the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina. All along the coast there is debri, foundations without homes on them, twisted metal and wood...and many of the palm trees along the beach are bent over so far they are almost parallel to the ground. Those trees stand as a testament to what powerful winds can do. They are the elegchos. Does that help explain it?

Third, if we read through Hebrews 11 further, it helps drive this point home. For instance, look at the next couple of verses:

"For by it [faith] the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Notice that understanding involves the use of our minds, reason and logic)

And just a little further down in verse 6, we find this:

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

This verse teaches that faith means believing, first, that God exists...that He is. How are we supposed to determine whether or not He exists without the use of our minds? Throughout Scripture we are admonished to renew our minds, pursue wisdom, understanding, to grow in knowledge...all of which would be impossible to do if faith had no connection with our minds. Also, in 1 Peter 3:15 we are told that we should be ready at all times to give an answer for the hope that is within us. Literally translated it means to give evidence, to present the reasons why we believe. This is a command. Again, if this were not possible, why would we be commanded to do this?

So, the reasons that faith "must" have, what would they be?

We have evidence for God in creation, in our personal testimony, but even beyond that there is evidence of the historical Jesus as well. If you read the account of Paul speaking at Mars Hill (In Acts 17 i think), he gives a great example on how to give evidence to support your beliefs. Check out these verses too: Titus 1:9, Acts 1:3, Acts 17:2-4, Acts 17:17, Acts 18:4, or Acts 19:8.

If we can't find reasons to support our faith then we are failing to live by the command to love God with all of our minds, and subsequently we'll be failing at making disciples and bringing His redemption to our culture and world.

[apothanein kerdos]

We can't understand God comprehensively. We cannot know His ontology, save for a few brief statements, These must be taken on a leap, but that leap must be based upon rational grounding. When it comes to anthropological theology, we can know quite a bit, and our faith can be based on a rational substance.

[Kabowd]

We can't understand God comprehensively. We cannot know His ontology, save for a few brief statements, These must be taken on a leap, but that leap must be based upon rational grounding. When it comes to anthropological theology, we can know quite a bit, and our faith can be based on a rational substance.

[hupo]

Well, to simplify it I'll say, God cannot be known. If God could be proved, it wouldn't be God.

Just to clarify things, by "knowing" I mean the logical type, with facts and figures.

One can know God in one's heart but not in one's head.

Again, this isn't biblical

We are taught in Scripture that we should love God with all of our hearts, souls and our minds (Matt. 22:37). God created our minds and gave us the ability to use logic and reason. Nowhwere in Scripture are we taught that faith is a "leap" into the area of non-reason. Remember that faith requires trust. In order to trust, one must first have the knowledge of truth. In order to have the knowledge of truth, one must first have the capability to determine what is true and what is false. This requires the use of logic. Logic does not mean we understand everything or comprehend everything. Instead, logic is the means or the tool by which we pursue understanding.

Here is a topic where this was discussed in more depth that may help you:

God is Logical?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

This verse actually helps prove my point

First, notice it says faith is the "assurance". The Greek word is hupostasis , and some translations may say "substance" because it gives the idea of something solid or firm like a foundation. Second, notice the word "conviction". The Greek word used here is elegchos, and it literally means "proof" or "evidence" (something that can be proven), for instance evidence presented in a court of law. This verse is not suggesting we are to have a "blind" faith. Just because something isn't seen with the eyes does not mean it doesn't exist. A common example of this is the wind. We know that wind exists, not because we see it, but because we see the evidence of it and how it affects other things we do see. I recently went to visit Biloxi/Gulport and saw the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina. All along the coast there is debri, foundations without homes on them, twisted metal and wood...and many of the palm trees along the beach are bent over so far they are almost parallel to the ground. Those trees stand as a testament to what powerful winds can do. They are the elegchos. Does that help explain it?

Third, if we read through Hebrews 11 further, it helps drive this point home. For instance, look at the next couple of verses:

"For by it [faith] the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Notice that understanding involves the use of our minds, reason and logic)

And just a little further down in verse 6, we find this:

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

This verse teaches that faith means believing, first, that God exists...that He is. How are we supposed to determine whether or not He exists without the use of our minds? Throughout Scripture we are admonished to renew our minds, pursue wisdom, understanding, to grow in knowledge...all of which would be impossible to do if faith had no connection with our minds. Also, in 1 Peter 3:15 we are told that we should be ready at all times to give an answer for the hope that is within us. Literally translated it means to give evidence, to present the reasons why we believe. This is a command. Again, if this were not possible, why would we be commanded to do this?

So, the reasons that faith "must" have, what would they be?

We have evidence for God in creation, in our personal testimony, but even beyond that there is evidence of the historical Jesus as well. If you read the account of Paul speaking at Mars Hill (In Acts 17 i think), he gives a great example on how to give evidence to support your beliefs. Check out these verses too: Titus 1:9, Acts 1:3, Acts 17:2-4, Acts 17:17, Acts 18:4, or Acts 19:8.

If we can't find reasons to support our faith then we are failing to live by the command to love God with all of our minds, and subsequently we'll be failing at making disciples and bringing His redemption to our culture and world.

I sure can't compete with your Logical post. It takes logic to respond to logic. My logic tells me God cannot be understood with our rational minds.

I don't have any proof that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Scripture is not proof unless you believe scripture is devine. Otherwise it's just another book.

I just don't understand, if there are facts to prove God's existance, how come so many don't believe in Him, in these "facts"?

[apothanein kerdos]

I sure can't compete with your Logical post. It takes logic to respond to logic. My logic tells me God cannot be understood with our rational minds.

I don't have any proof that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Scripture is not proof unless you believe scripture is devine. Otherwise it's just another book.

I just don't understand, if there are facts to prove God's existance, how come so many don't believe in Him, in these "facts"?

You can't use logic to draw an illogical conclusion. Likewise, proper logic cannot be contradictory, or else it would be illogical. Thus, wither you or Kabowd are wrong, you both can't be correct.

People do not follow the logic of God because man is fallen. Our minds are carnal and incomplete. Because of this, man often chooses to ignore the logic that points to God. Even Romans 1 states there is enough evidence to show man:

1) There is a God

2) That man has a major problem

All philosophies hinge on this belief - that man came from somewhere, and that there is a problem with man.

[hupo]

I sure can't compete with your Logical post. It takes logic to respond to logic. My logic tells me God cannot be understood with our rational minds.

I don't have any proof that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Scripture is not proof unless you believe scripture is devine. Otherwise it's just another book.

I just don't understand, if there are facts to prove God's existance, how come so many don't believe in Him, in these "facts"?

You can't use logic to draw an illogical conclusion. Likewise, proper logic cannot be contradictory, or else it would be illogical. Thus, wither you or Kabowd are wrong, you both can't be correct.

People do not follow the logic of God because man is fallen. Our minds are carnal and incomplete. Because of this, man often chooses to ignore the logic that points to God. Even Romans 1 states there is enough evidence to show man:

1) There is a God

2) That man has a major problem

All philosophies hinge on this belief - that man came from somewhere, and that there is a problem with man.

I guess you are logically correct. But back to the topic: I still don't find Faith logical. There wasn't anything that made sense in following God and Yeshua.

Something out there made me decide to believe. Is it logical? If it is, I don't understand that kind of logic.

I don't see the proof of God you seem to see in scripture.

So to answer the topic question, I believe, because I decided to believe, using that free choice God gave me. No logic.

[apothanein kerdos]

I sure can't compete with your Logical post. It takes logic to respond to logic. My logic tells me God cannot be understood with our rational minds.

I don't have any proof that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Scripture is not proof unless you believe scripture is devine. Otherwise it's just another book.

I just don't understand, if there are facts to prove God's existance, how come so many don't believe in Him, in these "facts"?

You can't use logic to draw an illogical conclusion. Likewise, proper logic cannot be contradictory, or else it would be illogical. Thus, wither you or Kabowd are wrong, you both can't be correct.

People do not follow the logic of God because man is fallen. Our minds are carnal and incomplete. Because of this, man often chooses to ignore the logic that points to God. Even Romans 1 states there is enough evidence to show man:

1) There is a God

2) That man has a major problem

All philosophies hinge on this belief - that man came from somewhere, and that there is a problem with man.

I guess you are logically correct. But back to the topic: I still don't find Faith logical. There wasn't anything that made sense in following God and Yeshua.

Something out there made me decide to believe. Is it logical? If it is, I don't understand that kind of logic.

I don't see the proof of God you seem to see in scripture.

So to answer the topic question, I believe, because I decided to believe, using that free choice God gave me. No logic.

Then your belief is wavy and highly subject to failure. That's essentially what it boils down to. You don't think teleological, cosmological, and anthropological studies render evidence of God?

[Guest Biblicist]

I asked my son this question tonight. He's 14, will be turning 15 in a week.

He watches the military channel most of the time. He especially likes to hear the "war stories", amazing escapes from horrible situations. People running through a field being shot at and not getting hit, or someone getting terribly wounded and still saving many others.

Today we heard a story of a friend of one of the members of our church. He's a soldier who just came back from Iraq. This soldier was part of a group that would go up and down streets and difuse bombs so it would be safe for civilians. One of the soldiers, not sure if it was actually him, was in a building making sure it was secure when a Suicide Bomber ran in and pressed the button on the bomb. It never went off. . .

My son said to me, "There is no way anything like that could happen unless God was out there taking care of us."

Sometimes he amazes me with his insite.