Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[firehill]

As far as the apostleship and eldership are concerned, since they include authority, teaching and the establishment of doctrinal orthodoxy, only a man is permitted to hold these offices.

Only men eh?

Junia was an apostle, Phoebe a deacon, and 1 Timothy and many other passages seem to be speaking of female elders...

If Paul believed that only men should be entrusted with his principles, doctrines and teachings then he wouldn't have used a gender neutral term, 'people' in 2 Timothy 2:2.

2 Tim 2:2, "And entrust what you heard me say in the presence of many others

as witnesses to faithful people who will be competent to teach others as well." NET

2 Timothy 2:2

2 You have heard me teach things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses. Now teach these truths to other trustworthy people who will be able to pass them on to others. NLT

Junia was a man.

'Now early in this century a very famous German scholar, Hans Lietzmann, who was a superb philologian, made an investigation into all surviving names of antiquity and came to the conclusion that the name Junias did not exist -- that the name Junianus existed and that the name Junias is possible as a short form for the name Junianus, but there was no evidence that it was ever used. So he says philologically you cannot bring evidence that this was a man Junias rather than a woman Junia, but he says that since it's not thinkable that a woman was an apostle, we have to read the male name Junias. And later commentaries say we have to read the male name Junias, because Hans Lietzmann has brought the philological evidence. Well,... he has done the evidence. He has done the opposite! So, no question -- scholars agree today that indeed Romans 16 contains reference to a female apostle named Junia, whom Paul recognized as an apostle before him. '

There is alot of other info regarding Junia, in a commentary here:

http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/rom16.htm

This is hardly proof of anything. Here is all the Bible says about this person. Romans 16:7 "Salute Adronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." At best, one can make the case that nobody knows what sex this person was, but there is no way you can claim to know it was a woman.

The arguments made for the apostle being a woman are convincing. The lack of ANY evidence that the name Junianus even existed in antiquity is further compelling and actualy even embarrasing.

Since it calls Andronicus and Junia kinsmen, I believe it was a man, but won't bother to argue something I can't prove.

3 Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus. 4 In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. 5 Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home.

You mean 'co-workers'? The Greek word here is also gender neutral.

My point is that you are calling Junia a woman when you can't prove it is the case, just to strengthen your position for women apostles. In reality, it doesn't matter anyway because I believe it is fine for women to work as missionaries, and that is what an apostle was.

Paul lists apostles first, prophets second, etc in a hierachy. They were more than missionaries. Apostles and prophets are the VERY two foundational ministries in the body of Christ!

1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

[Tubal-Cain]

The female name Junia appears in more than 250 Greek and Latin inscriptions in Rome alone (Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 475). Chrysostom exclaims, "Oh how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of this appellation of apostle" (Homily 31 on Romans).

[Tubal-Cain]

In reality, the word translated servant was diakonia, which has many meanings. Here they are: attendance (as a servant, etc.) fig. (eleemosynary) aid, (official) service (espec. of the Chr. teacher, or techn. of the diaconated): (ad.) minister (ing, tration, try), office, relief, service (ing.) The word deacon doesn't come up one time in the definition. This is only further evidence your translations are intentionally misleading.

diakonos

1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a

deacon

, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

For Synonyms see entry 5834

From the real English translation of scripture, the KJV

I COMMEND unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea.

Before you get started with your attack on the KJV, let me point out that at least the word used to describe Phebe by the King James translators is actually part of the definition of the word found in the Greek, unlike whatever you are using.

The KJV is inconsistent since it translated the term as "deacon" in Philippians 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:8, 12.

[firehill]

The female name Junia appears in more than 250 Greek and Latin inscriptions in Rome alone (Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 475). Chrysostom exclaims, "Oh how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of this appellation of apostle" (Homily 31 on Romans).

There are a lot of names that I could mention that are used for both men and women today. Tracy would be one of them. This doesn't prove that Junia was female either, but since there is nothing to prohibit a woman from serving as a missionary, it is irrelivant.

Now this proves that you are in complete denial.

[Tubal-Cain]

According to p. 42 of the dictionary in the Greek New Testament the term used in Romans 16:1 means "servant; helper, minister; deacon; deaconess."

[Floatingaxe]

This is hardly proof of anything. Here is all the Bible says about this person. Romans 16:7 "Salute Adronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." At best, one can make the case that nobody knows what sex this person was, but there is no way you can claim to know it was a woman. Since it calls Andronicus and Junia kinsmen, I believe it was a man, but won't bother to argue something I can't prove. My point is that you are calling Junia a woman when you can't prove it is the case, just to strengthen your position for women apostles. In reality, it doesn't matter anyway because I believe it is fine for women to work as missionaries, and that is what an apostle was. I have been stating they are not qualified to serve as a bishop or deacon. I'm not conceding the point, as I believe Junia was a man, but just saying it is irrelivant.

[firehill]

This is hardly proof of anything. Here is all the Bible says about this person. Romans 16:7 "Salute Adronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." At best, one can make the case that nobody knows what sex this person was, but there is no way you can claim to know it was a woman. Since it calls Andronicus and Junia kinsmen, I believe it was a man, but won't bother to argue something I can't prove. My point is that you are calling Junia a woman when you can't prove it is the case, just to strengthen your position for women apostles. In reality, it doesn't matter anyway because I believe it is fine for women to work as missionaries, and that is what an apostle was. I have been stating they are not qualified to serve as a bishop or deacon. I'm not conceding the point, as I believe Junia was a man, but just saying it is irrelivant.

[Ovedya]

As far as the apostleship and eldership are concerned, since they include authority, teaching and the establishment of doctrinal orthodoxy, only a man is permitted to hold these offices.

Only men eh?

Junia was an apostle, Phoebe a deacon, and 1 Timothy and many other passages seem to be speaking of female elders...

The only mention of Junia in the NT:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Rom. 16:7)

This single verse does not prove that either Andronicus or Junia were apostles. According to both Greek and English grammer, they were Paul's "kinsmen" (probably Jews) and "fellow prisoners." They are "of note" among the apostles. This simply means that the apostles regard them highly. It does not mean that they are also apostles. It takes a real stretch of the imagination and a lot of verse-twisting to say that paul is calling either of these two apostles.

"commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a deaconess of the church which is in Cenchrea," (Rom. 16:1)

As I stated before, and many times, that Phoebe was a "deaconess" does not make her one who held a position of authority over men, who established and affirmed the proper doctrines of the church. A deacon is a servant, and the Greek word is used continually to indicate this. There is no reason whatever to presume that Phoebe held a position of authority over men.

If Paul believed that only men should be entrusted with his principles, doctrines and teachings then he wouldn't have used a gender neutral term, 'people' in 2 Timothy 2:2.

That's a presumption. How do you know what Paul would or would have not used?

The word used is not gender neutral, by the way. It's a masculine noun according to Strong's

[firehill]

Note that if the author wanted to just say "servant" as opposed to "deaconess" to avoid confusion, the Greek language has better words than "diakonia" to pourtray the notion of "female servant" without confusing the word with an allegedly all-male office of ministry: Such as "Handmaiden".

"handmaiden" -> "doule". female slave. (or servant).

Which is the feminine of the same words where Paul and James call themself the "servant of Christ" or the "slave of Christ". (douleuo, slave or servant.)

[Ovedya]

Okay, now I've deleted your post, Karen C.

As long as you continue to post things from other sites without the proper reference, your posts will be deleted. We have a firm policy against plagiarism.

Whatever... :whistling:You obviously did not read where I had wrote on what AUTHORITY I used the AG positional paper.. Did you??

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