Pick and Choose Laws

[kat8585]

Shiloh, let me ask you this.

Why are the dietary laws from leviticus not carried over to the gentiles?

Why is eating unclean animals okay for Christians but not Jews?

The commandments that God gave Israel were meant to separate them from the cultures and systems that surrounded them. They were meant to make Israel noticably different from the rest of the nations. God wanted the Jewish people to be different in everything. He wanted them to be different, in their dress, their worship, even in what they eat. Even today, the Jewish dietary habits continue to separate them from the rest of world.

I guess I dont really understand the answer yet.

Where do we gentiles fit into this equasion?

I mean are we not grafted in?

Are we not seeds of Abraham too?

So why would we not join the Christian Jews in the observances?

Yes, you are grafted in, but that does not make you a Jew, nor does it mean you are member of the nation of Israel. The dietary laws were only for national Israel as a requirement.

That does not mean that these dietary laws are irrelevant spiritually, though. For example, the dietary laws, like the rest of the Torah teach us about separation from the world. They teach us that we are to live differently, to have "set-apart" lives that mark as Christians. So many in the church are trying to how close to the world they can live without getting burned but the biblical pattern is to live differently to be radically set part.

Secondly, as we examine the clean animals that God allowed Israel to eat, the one thing that stands out is that none of these animals are predators. They depend on being fed by what is readily availabe such as grass and vegitation. Often they depend on a shepherd or someone else to care for them and make sure they have water and food. They have to be watched over and protected from predators. They are an illustration of God's watchcare over us and teach us to be totally dependent on Him, unlike the predators who nourish themselves in their own strength and have to kill and hurt others for their own good.

Now, if you feel led to observe the dietary commandments, you are free in Christ to do so; that is totally between you and the Lord.

I think at least one reason God gave the dietary laws was because He knew how unhealthy the unclean animals were, and still are. Most of them are scavengers. You wouldn't eat a vulture, would you? Then why eat any of the other ones? I've heard the lobster referred to as the huge cockroach of the sea. They say if you cook pork well enough those little worms will be dead. I don't want to eat dead worms either.

So I think, if for no other reason than this, the dietary laws should be observed. Nothing has changed. Some say the NT says we can eat anything, but people still die of diseases caused by eating these unclean meats.

Personally, it turns my stomach at the thought of eating any of them. I don't eat much meat of any kind. I feel better physically when I don't.

[Guest shiloh357]

To me, the whole law issue is quite simple. There are two laws we are to keep. 1. Love the Lord with all our heart, strength, mind. 2. Love our neighbors as ourselves. If we keep these two, we do what God commands. In Pauls letters, and in Revelation, we have some clarification added to these laws. We are told that Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, Lying, and fearfulness, are abominations to God. Take the dietary law for example. We would all be much healthier if we kept it, but we are not required to keep it. Take tattoos for example. It would be better if we did not get them, but we are not forbidden from getting them.

You are kind of on the right track, hr.jr. It is actually the other way around, though. It is not a matter of only having two laws to keep. That is not what we Jesus said. What Jesus said is that the entire law is summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor. Everything in the law is designed to teach us what love looks like. Also the Bible definition of "love" is not the same as modern connotation. If you take a person who has lived in the world, and the only love they have known is the emotional/sexual variety, then there are going to be some problems with their understanding what God means by love. I posted about this earlier in this thread on post #131. If you keep God's commandments, then love will simply be the outgrowth of your obedience. Biblical love is about being obedient to God and a servant to others. It has nothing to do with emotion or "feel good" stuff that we are familiar with in the purely human experience.

You are correct, though. We would be healthier if we followed God's dietary laws. However, that is between each person, and the Lord.

Christians should have enough spiritual maturity to operate without the law. The law is a teacher. The law must be applied to the Christians who act so immature that they are incapable of operating in the laws of love. The laws of love are God's best. The law is God's worst. The question is, how much spiritual maturity do you have?

Uh, not really. The law produces maturity. It is not a crutch for the immature. If anything it is those who are spiritually immature who hate the law. The Law/Torah shows that God has man's best interests at heart; it is not "God's worst" as you say. I don't know where you read that in the Scriptures, but the Scriptures never, ever denigrate the law of God. The Law was never the problem. It was man's sin in the presence of God's law that was the problem. It was man's inability to meet the standards of righteousness that posed the problem, and made redemption necessary.

The law of Moses IS the law of Love. The Law shows God's love for man in the many ways it foreshadows His redemption plan. The Torah reveals the mercy and Grace of God in amazing ways through the Festivals and the Sacrifices. Nothing in the law teaches you how to make success for yourself. Everything in the law is about how to serve others and to do for others. The Law of Moses is 100% extroverted in its focus. The Law is a teacher. It teaches us how to love. We never outgrow God's laws, anymore than anyone "outgrows" their local speed limits or traffic signals.

If you understand Paul's teaching on liberty and License to sin, then you are capable of living without the law. If you do not understand his teaching, you are quite incapable of living without the law.

Not even Jesus lived outside the boundaries of God's laws. Can you live according to a higher standard than He did?

[Scarletprayers]

Shiloh, what was the reason behind not wearing 2 different kinds of cloth together? Thats always confused me.

[Scarletprayers]

Shiloh, what was the reason behind not wearing 2 different kinds of cloth together? Thats always confused me.

I am sure Shiloh has his own answer, but the reason I believe for this law was symbolism. It was one of several laws that was given as a sign to show Israel to be a separate people from the unclean nations around them.

Okay I'm slow , what would it symbolize? I mean why would that set them apart, I can understand most of the other ways the Lord set them apart and it makes sense, I just don't get this one?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, what was the reason behind not wearing 2 different kinds of cloth together? Thats always confused me.

That is Leviticus 19:19. Actually, God did not forbid the mixing of fabrics, but of only two fabrics, wool and linen. The Bible does not give us a clear answer as to why this commandment is given. Not even the Rabbis can give a definitive answer, but it is suppposed by both Christian scholars and Jewish scholars alike that it may have had something to with superstitions, which is why the this commandment occurs in the same verse with the commandments not to interbreed different types of cattle and not to sow a field with two kinds of seed, presumably two kinds of wheat ,or two kinds of corn and so on. The pagans had superstitious rites in almost everything they did, and God's commandments were meant to keep Israel from looking and acting like them. So, given that we still know so littel about the ancient world due to wars that destroyed anicent libraries and obliterated entire cultures in antiquity, we may never exactly what the reason is behind it.

That being said, the Rabbis say something interesting about this commandment. It is what they refer to as, a "khok." (prounced similar to "Coke" but with a throat gutteral on the "kh"). It is a law for which there is no readily apparent logic. The Rabbis say that one should study the laws he understands as if he doesn't understand, and obey the laws he doesn't understand as if he understands them completely. So, the Orthodox Jewish people still observe this commandment. They call the mixing of wool and line "Shatnez" The word Shatnez is word that is a combination of the Hebrew words for "spun" and "woven." They even have special places you can take your garments to, to have them checked for Shatnez if they appear suspicious.

The Midrash comments on this verse and suggests that Cain and Abel brought two different offerings one containg wool (lambs) and other containing among other vegitation, flax from which linen is made, and they placed the same offerings on the same altar, and after Cain killed Abel, God decided that the two would never be mixed again. Keep in mind that it is just a Midrash (Parable) and such is not meant to be understood as literally having occurred that way. The point is to teach a lesson, namely the lesson of separation. Good and evil, sin and righteousness, etc. cannot peacefully coexist. They cannot mix. The reason Israel was sent into bondage into Babylon was because the priests were mixing pagan rituals with the sacrifices prescribed in the Torah.

That is the best I can do for now. Maybe someday, God will reveal more completely his reasoning behind not mixing wool and linen.

[Giaour]

I still dont understand.

I thought that there was neither jew not greek nor gentile only those saved through Christ-Christians.

Jews have to accept Christ too to get to heaven.

Why arent the Jews free from the law like the Christians?

If a child is adopted by a couple, that child has to obey the adopted parents rules but they also are given an equal share of the inheritance.He is treated no different than the other children who are naturally born to the parents.

[Scarletprayers]

Thanks Shiloh, that is so interesting! I really like hear the "Jewish" side of things, which I guess means I'm gonna have to really decide to study at some point, since you keep tweeking my interest. You are a font of knowledge! Which is better than what I was always told, that I was a font of useless trivia. I know in the grand scheme of things I wont die not knowing the answer, but it was just one of those little things my mind kept asking why about. Not that you answered it , but at least now I have some really cool stories about it!

[Scarletprayers]

I still dont understand.

I thought that there was neither jew not greek nor gentile only those saved through Christ-Christians.

Jews have to accept Christ too to get to heaven.

Why arent the Jews free from the law like the Christians?

If a child is adopted by a couple, that child has to obey the adopted parents rules but they also are given an equal share of the inheritance.He is treated no different than the other children who are naturally born to the parents.

Gia, he's talking about the Jew who are still praticing Jews, not Messianic Jews. Although I'm sure some of them still obey the laws because thats who they are, not because they have to.

[Giaour]

I still dont understand.

I thought that there was neither jew not greek nor gentile only those saved through Christ-Christians.

Jews have to accept Christ too to get to heaven.

Why arent the Jews free from the law like the Christians?

If a child is adopted by a couple, that child has to obey the adopted parents rules but they also are given an equal share of the inheritance.He is treated no different than the other children who are naturally born to the parents.

Gia, he's talking about the Jew who are still praticing Jews, not Messianic Jews. Although I'm sure some of them still obey the laws because thats who they are, not because they have to.

So then why are Jews (non christian) considered Gods people if they reject His son?

Isnt it possible that God is talking about the Jews who HAVE accepted His son as His people?

Which would include us Christians.

Another thing,

Why dont messianic Jews call themselves Christians?

[Guest shiloh357]

I still dont understand.

I thought that there was neither jew not greek nor gentile only those saved through Christ-Christians.

Jews have to accept Christ too to get to heaven.

Why arent the Jews free from the law like the Christians?

If a child is adopted by a couple, that child has to obey the adopted parents rules but they also are given an equal share of the inheritance. He is treated no different than the other children who are naturally born to the parents.

I am not sure I am following you here... Where did anyone say that saved Jews are forced to remain kosher, keep the Sabbath, etc.? I am just not sure where your question is coming from. Can you help me out?