What constitutes spiritual warfare?

[Guest kingsheir]

As God's Word so reminds me

"He summoned the Twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over unclean spirits. He instructed them to take nothing for the road except a walking stick: no bread, no backpack, no money in their belts, but to wear sandals, and not to put on an extra shirt. Then He said to them, "Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that place. Whatever place will not welcome you, and people refuse to listen to you, when you leave there, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them." So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they were driving out many demons, anointing many sick people with oil, and healing."

Blessings!

kingsheir

[martyr]

Dr. Steve,

I disagree, as I feel you do, with the statement concerning lack of faith being the direct cause of lack of healing.  As a born again Christian able to discern by the power of the Holy Spirit, I don't see backing for the belief that our health is based on our "performance".

If that were the case, I guess the Apostle Paul really didn't believe what he was writing in all those letters.  Also, the people that go to the stage shows that pose as revivals would be healed because they do have faith and belief.  

God bless you all.

[nebula]

Hoo-boy!

We can start several new threads on what's been covered here.  One thing I would like to ask of everyone involved in this debate right now:

When you post your position of spiritual warfare, binding and/or casting out demons, healings, etc., would you please indicate whether or not you have been involved with such spiritual activity?  For instance, have you prayed healing over anyone who was healed?  Have you had involvements with demonic forces, been a part of a delivrance ministry, gone on a mission trip to places like Africa where demonic activity is more out in the open?

:

I ask this because I have come to learn that in all matters in life, there is a big difference from "textbook" knowledge and "experiencial" knowledge.

I mean, I can appreciate those of you who take a strict position of "If it is not specifically laid out in the Word, it is not so."  But, if you comapare the Old Testament with the New Testament, you will notice that the way things were understood in the days of the Patriarchs is different than the way things were understood in the days of the kings, which is different than the way things were understood in the New Testament times.  (i.e. Are demons mentioned in the Old Teatament at all?  A new understanding must have been given sometime between the writings of the Old and New Testaments.)  I believe we too have been given new understandings.  I am not saying that what is written is wrong or invalid - please do not read this that way.  I am just pointing out that the people of that time were of a different culture in a different time with different understandings in general.

If you have the chance to research early church history, you will notice that Christianity went through a change as the power center of the Church moved from the hands of the Jews to the hands of the Gentiles (after the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, the center of Christianity moved to Ephesus originally; the move to Rome came later).  You see, the Gentiles were heavily influenced by the Greco-Roman belief system.  Greek philosophy caused many problems with the late first century, second century, and third century churches (the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds were written as a means to combat some of these problems).

All that for a perspective understanding.  AFAIK, Jesus is the first person to have cast out demons.  He gave this authority to His disciples.  But as people have been involved with casting out demons, and as those involved with pagan religions and the spiritual leaders of such - i.e. witch-doctors or other religious leaders, witchcraft, sorcery, satanism, or any other form of activity that can be associated with demons - have repented and come to Christ and have been able to share what they used to do, more knowledge of curses and demonic activity have come to light.

And when people out on the mission field in places like Africa or areas still led by witch-doctors and such come back and say such-and-such happened with regards to demonic activity, and "this" is what produced results and "this" did not, I believe they would know better than what I could from researching "what is written" without the experience.  Same goes for people involved with deliverence ministries.  

Does that make sense?

*****

One word I would like to add about healing.  Remember the accounts in Scripture where Jesus could not heal in certain towns or had to take a person outside of the town in order to heal him?  It was not about individual belief, per se, but because there was so much unbelief in the town as a whole it made such ministry difficult.  We live in a country that believes in science more than it does in God, or even the spiritual realm.  Overcoming the doubt of the land is a big obstacle to overcome!

I know of people who over here have prayed for healing over others with little or no results.  But when they went on a mission trip to places like India or the former Eastern block countries, people they were praying over for healing were being healed right and left!  This is why I am believing the faith of the land has a lot to do with the end results.

Peace!

[Timothy]

But, if you comapare the Old Testament with the New Testament, you will notice that the way things were understood in the days of the Patriarchs is different than the way things were understood in the days of the kings, which is different than the way things were understood in the New Testament times.  (i.e. Are demons mentioned in the Old Teatament at all?

Actually, the word "demon" is not found anywhere in the KJV. The word used is devil, and it is found in both the Old and New Testaments. Spirits, and unclean spirits are also mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments.

[The Journey]

Nebula,

[Guest]

I think that the answers to these questions are laid out in the scriptures. However we have not found all the keys to unlock all the truths.

For instance, lack of faith is not the reason for lack of healing in every area, but the lack of faith does cause some to walk in sickness. As was written, even Jesus could not heal where there was no faith. Then we must wonder why there is no faith.

I think there is a difference where people don't believe because they have not heard and those who have heard and determined that God is a liar. By this I mean, when we don't believe God, or have faith in Him, than we are calling Him a liar.

I have had things that have not come to pass, but rather than say it is not God's will. I am digging deeper and I keep on asking. I do believe, but the answer is not readily apparent. Sometimes this is spiritual warfare and sometimes this is just war with my flesh. Sometimes I have been feeding my mind with non productive junk. We are what we eat.

 My greatest personal deliverance was the day God translated me out of the kingdom of darkness and put me into His kingdom. Deliverance is the work of God.

On the subject of healing, I have found human nature sometimes does not want to be healed. Some people resist change even if it is for the better. And yes I think this includes healing. I have seen people who want to be sick. It gets them sympathy and as long as they are sick they have an excuse for being a failure. I know this sounds harsh, but I know it is true. There healing must be proceeded by deliverance. Either by educating them in the word, or praying for God to break through in their lives.

I think for an understanding of spiritual warfare, we should go back to the beginning. It all started in the garden. And when we understand what went wrong and why, we will be better equiped to deal with it now.

 IMHO,

[Guest yod]

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[Guest]

Yod, I agree.

I don't think we should attempt to seperate faith and obedience. They are twins so to speak.

Will faith get us out of jail if we commit murder? Only if we repent and seek forgiveness. In that case God forgives and we are out of our spiritual "jail".  We could very well remain in jail to serve out our sentence.  We do reap what we sow.

If we sin and repent we are forgiven, but that does not mean there is not a crop of weeds to deal with.  :a2:

[The Journey]

On the subject of healing, I have found human nature sometimes does not want to be healed. Some people resist change even if it is for the better. And yes I think this includes healing. I have seen people who want to be sick. It gets them sympathy and as long as they are sick they have an excuse for being a failure. I know this sounds harsh, but I know it is true. There healing must be proceeded by deliverance. Either by educating them in the word, or praying for God to break through in their lives.

I think for an understanding of spiritual warfare, we should go back to the beginning. It all started in the garden. And when we understand what went wrong and why, we will be better equiped to deal with it now.

[nebula]

The Journey - I appreciate what you are saying.  It is hard to convey what I was trying to mean.  But I have learned there needs to be a balance between "what is written" and what is "experienced."  Just as you have had problems with people who rely too much on experience (OK, I've had those encounters, too), I have had encounters with people who have their noses so deep in the Bible they can't see two feet in front of them!  It's also very hard when you have ten different people with ten different opinions - and all of them have their array of Scriptural references to back it up!  So which one is correct?  Well, why would not using something to measure the views against be a valid means of determining which is truth and which isn't?

I practically grew up under charasmatic teaching, and, yes, I found out the hard way that a lot of fluff was being preached.  And, yes, I have come to believe that we need to examine what we believe and why.  I have been doing a lot of that in the past fifteen years or so, and I am still sorting things out.  I just didn't want to express all I have been gathering together on these topics because then I knew I'd be stirring up even more of a hornet's nest.

What I wanted to be conveyed was that just as having the "experience" of spiritual activity without the Scriptural knowledge and backing is dangerous, so having all the "knowledge" but not having put the knowledge to use and having it work is  - well - what?

It's like this, would you want to learn how to drive from someone who has the Driver's manual memorized but has never driven on the highway, from someone who has been driving for years and years on various roads and in various conditions (assuming they have been driving safely), or someone who has at least a reasonable knowledge of the driver's manual AND has been driving for years on the roads?  Nothing is wrong with the Driver's manual, but what is written in the manual does not help me know what to do on the highway in rush hour traffic in all the varying situations that occur.  This is where I rely on what my dad taught me from his experience on how to handle the car and get through traffic.

Does that make more sense?