God's gender

[Neopatriarch]

Hello list,

This is my first poll. I hope it's fair enough for all of you. I didn't really like the poll that asks if God is male. "Male" refers to a person's physical sex. It's better to ask if God is masculine. So, here it is.

In Christ,

neopatriarch

[Fiosh]

Hi neopatriarch,

Tough questions.

Q #1 Trying to assign gender to God is difficult since we only understand it from a human perspective. After debating it within my own mind, I settled on "neither". God relates to us as "Father"---so I almost said "masculine". Yet, God cannot be limited by labeling Him (irony) as "masculine".

It is clear from Scripture that God also reveals Himself as having traditionally "feminine" traits:

Is 13: 34

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Is 49:14-15

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me; my Lord has forgotten me."

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.

************************

So, it was a tough decision, but I went with "neither", because "both" felt almost disrespectful of the greatness and awesomeness of who God is.

Q#2 The topic is important

Anything about God is important to discuss. IMHO

Q #3 I would consider myself a "complementarian"

I have to admit the terms are not all that familiar, but this seems to best describe how I understand our roles as Christians. However, from what I've read here at WB, I don't think my views are quite as "staunch" as some. I believe that God created men and women for unique roles both in the Church and in the family. But I also believe He created us as equals. To have a different role, is not to be "less than".

Peace,

Fiosh

PS. Thanks for the exercise, neo p.

[Floatingaxe]

1. God is not male or female, but is masculine in His relationship with us.

2. The subject has been beaten to death and it is trivial, in the scheme of things.

3. I am more of an egalitarian, but eschew labels.

[Neopatriarch]

Hi neopatriarch,

Tough questions.

Q #1 Trying to assign gender to God is difficult since we only understand it from a human perspective. After debating it within my own mind, I settled on "neither". God relates to us as "Father"---so I almost said "masculine". Yet, God cannot be limited by labeling Him (irony) as "masculine".

It is clear from Scripture that God also reveals Himself as having traditionally "feminine" traits:

Is 13: 34

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling!

From this verse, it might seem like God has some feminine traits. But, on the same note, it might seem like God has some hen traits.

Is 49:14-15

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me; my Lord has forgotten me."

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.

The bible calls God "Father" by direct naming, but here we have only a comparison between God and a (human) mother. Figurative speech is being used. I don't see how that would be enough warrant for thinking of God as feminine.

Besides, the verse may well be saying that God is not like a mother because, while a mother might forget, God will never forget you.

[Fiosh]

Hi neopatriarch,

Tough questions.

Q #1 Trying to assign gender to God is difficult since we only understand it from a human perspective. After debating it within my own mind, I settled on "neither". God relates to us as "Father"---so I almost said "masculine". Yet, God cannot be limited by labeling Him (irony) as "masculine".

It is clear from Scripture that God also reveals Himself as having traditionally "feminine" traits:

Is 13: 34

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling!

From this verse, it might seem like God has some feminine traits. But, on the same note, it might seem like God has some hen traits.

Is 49:14-15

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me; my Lord has forgotten me."

Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.

The bible calls God "Father" by direct naming, but here we have only a comparison between God and a (human) mother. Figurative speech is being used. I don't see how that would be enough warrant for thinking of God as feminine.

Besides, the verse may well be saying that God is not like a mother because, while a mother might forget, God will never forget you.

You make good points, and I do not totally disagree. In fact, if you pinned me down to choose between masculine and feminine only, I would choose masculine.

The verses cited point to God's nurturing characteristics. Maybe it would be helpful is you would define masculine and feminine.

But, God made us BOTH in Him image. So, that seems to preclude limiting Him to one or the other.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Neopatriarch]

The verses cited point to God's nurturing characteristics. Maybe it would be helpful is you would define masculine and feminine.

But, God made us BOTH in Him image. So, that seems to preclude limiting Him to one or the other.

Peace,

Fiosh

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

True. Man is created in the image of God, and woman is created in the image of God. There are different glories though. Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. Anthropologically speaking, gender differences are based on the Creator-creature distinction and relationship. I would say that gender differences between men and women are based on these different glories. Further, I don't think masculinity is a component of the image of God. Otherwise, you run into a problem like this:

The image of God is masculine.

Woman is the image of God.

Therefore, woman is masculine.

Are women masculine? I suppose the could be, but not by nature. This is a reductio ad absurdum argument to show that masculinity is not a component of the image of God, it is rather an aspect of his glory.

In Christ,

Neopatriarch

[Fiosh]

The verses cited point to God's nurturing characteristics. Maybe it would be helpful is you would define masculine and feminine.

But, God made us BOTH in Him image. So, that seems to preclude limiting Him to one or the other.

Peace,

Fiosh

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

True. Man is created in the image of God, and woman is created in the image of God. There are different glories though. Man is the glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

In Christ,

Neopatriarch

Please explain this further:

HOW are they different glories?

Does man have his OWN glory to give to woman?

From where does his glory come?

How does he give it?

Is woman less "glorious" than man in God's eyes?

Are feminine traits less desirable than masculine?

Are men and women equal in God's eyes?

Thanks,

F

OH! One more question"

What is "glory"?

[Neopatriarch]

Please explain this further:

HOW are they different glories?

This is a good question.

For me, the best way to make the connection is by examples. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." Christ is the Wonderful Savior of the church. He is her Hero. Christ has the glory of a hero when he fights for his Church. We can kind of see what this is like when we watch movies or read stories with heros in them. Aren't we amazed by the heros? Don't we want to say "YES!" when the hero is victorious? We should definitely and wholeheartedly say "YES!" to Christ's victory, to Christ's glorious victory. "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." (Rev 5:12) Now maybe I'm off in my understanding, but this is what I think of when I think of man as the glory of God: Men, as analogues of Christ, are to be heroic (small "h" because we aren't atoning for anyone's sin). Man is to reflect what God is like, and the purpose of this is to glorify God. No doubt there is much more to being the glory of God than being heroic though.

From fiveaspects.org:

Man is created to display something of God's glory in his bearing, roles, and activities. Made for God and sharing masculinity with God, man relates to nature, women, and other men in ways characteristic of God's power, righteousness, grace, love.

Also from fiveapsects.org:

Woman is the last creation of God, and the quintessential creature. As the glory of man, her femininity embodies the characteristics and virtues of the believer and the Church -- responsiveness, fruitfulness, and faith.

Now, if I may try to make a connection for you . . .

Think of ballroom dancers. The man leads and the lady follows. But the man is there to present the lady. He shows her off. She dances with flourish. His movements are more restrained. He is not to upstage her because he is showing off her glory. As William Mouser says on fiveaspects.org "[w]oman is . . . the quintessential creature." She is to represent the beloved Bride of Christ. This is glorious.

I hope this helps. Really, it's not an easy thing to explain well and I'm pretty sure I haven't done justice to it. I can only hope the light comes on for you and you see it. The "glory of God" is much broader than my example might suggest, and so is the "glory of man". My intention was to have it 'connect' for you.

Basically though, the different glories and the Christ-church relationship reveal to us that gender differences are based on the Creator-creature distinction and relationship.

In Christ,

Neopatriarch

[JIME]

Hello list,

This is my first poll. I hope it's fair enough for all of you. I didn't really like the poll that asks if God is male. "Male" refers to a person's physical sex. It's better to ask if God is masculine. So, here it is.

In Christ,

neopatriarch

God is masculine to me.

This is an issue that I don't really feel the need to think about. God is who He is.

As for what I consider myself, all the choices were unfamiliar to me and way above my head.

[Neopatriarch]

God is . . .

masculine__________________[ 12 ] ** [75.00%]

feminine___________________[ 0 ] ** [0.00%]

both_______________________[ 1 ] ** [6.25%]

neither_____________________[ 3 ] ** [18.75%]

don't know__________________[ 0 ] * [0.00%]

God is...

Male______________________[ 33 ] ** [54.10%]

Female____________________[ 1 ] ** [1.64%]

Gender Neutral (Neither)______[ 16 ] ** [26.23%]

Gender Inclusive (Both)_______[ 11 ] ** [18.03%]

Well, my poll seems to have flopped since so few voted. Maybe people here are more interested in whether God is male or not than whether God is masculine. Or, maybe people are so tired of the issue after the "Is God male" thread, they didn't want to go over it again. Who knows? Nevertheless, 75% of those who voted in my poll said that God is masculine, but only 54.10% of those who voted in the "Is God male" poll said that God is male. Not that this means anything with so few voters.