Rousing, emotional start for war protest

[ted]

Try to remember that the Love and work of Christ should trump all, and if there is anything that you want to type that may hinder that, it is perhaps better left unwritten.

As I was asking before -

What is the work of God?

Regarding the Work of God:

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To me, we are to spread the Gospel in such a way that people can make a decision for Christ. More specifically to your question, Jesus clearly said that the work of God was "that ye believe on him who he hath sent".

We accomplish this in many ways, and IMO, we should strive to do His will here on earth. The role of Jesus is clear, and our role as followers is clear. What we have to do is find the humility, strength, and love to accomplish this work as best we can.

t.

PS- On a side note, vs 40 empties the wind from the sails of those who think that God wants to pick and choose who He wants to make it to Heaven, or that He seeks to be exclusive in who He wants to make it. Clearly, God wants all to come to Him through Christ.

[buckthesystem]

QUOTE from BTS

then by the same logic (i.e. Romans 13 doesn't say "only western democratic powers that be") God must have also ordained Saddam Hussein as the "authority" in Iraq.

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Quote from tmrfiles:

"The last I knew, Saddam was not a Bible believing Christian, was a ruthless dictator , and did not submit to the governing world authorities so that means Saddam Hussein was under God's wrath. Romans 13"

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BTS: So you believe that "no authority exists but that of God" refers only to leaders who allege that they are Bible believing Christians. Interesting! Funny, but Romans 13 doesn't say that!

Perhaps we should have a test that leaders are required to pass before we believe that they are under God's ordination. I believe that Robert Mugabe once made the claim that he was a "Bible believing Christian" (although, as someone pointed out to me: "he also claimed to be a socialist at one time, then a alltruist", maybe next he will claim to be a pink dragon).

You will really have to re-write Romans 13 to include the words "only alleged Bible believing Christians, mind".

[Tubal-Cain]

Well, it seems the topic got veered off course . . . which does tend to happen a lot, but that's OK.

Actually, I already answered your questions on post #87 of this thread (on p. 9).

[Tubal-Cain]

And what governing authority were all of these people groups operating under to defeat the oppression and tyranny of the people??

Americans who opposed slavery were largely Christians fighting against other Christians who supported slavery. Americans who fought for civil rights were largely Christians fighting against other Christians who supported racism. Many Christians failed to oppose the Nazis and the Nazis were defeated by the armies of other predominately Christian nations. I have no hesitation in saying that the Christians who opposed the above governments were heroes.

The main objective of the world governing authorities in Iraq is to make it a better place for the people of Iraq by getting their new government off the ground, so as not to be subject to oppression and tyranny by islamics.

True. Of course Iraq under Saddam was a secular government and not an Islamic one. IMO, our presence in Iraq is doing little or nothing in providing a peaceful country free of an Islamic government.

Do you see how absurd these comments are? Saddam was a tyrant, Saddam was not a Bible believing Christian, Saddam refused to submit to the world governing bodies, which means Saddam was under the wrath of God. Romans 13

My comments are not absurd if one is to follow the government blindly. Romans 13 does not say one should only follow governments led by Bible-believing Christians. And your appeal the world governing bodies fails since the UN never authorized coalition forces to invade Iraq and Kofi Annan called the invasion illegal under the UN charter. Are you saying that the UN is the final authority all Christians should heed or that we should only heed Bible-believing Christian leaders (not that we'd be able to know much about their personal faith)?

That is often the case, according to history. Christians live underground in many oppressive regimes around the world, enduring persecution and death. And even in your civilized nations, Christians are now being discriminated against for their faith in Christ.

The issue is whether Christians should oppose injustice when possible. For example, the civil rights movement often committed acts of civil disobedience to move the country toward racial equality. In your opinion, was this the Christian thing to do or should racial minorities just have sat there being oppressed indefinitely instead of opposing the government?

Evil and tyranny, and oppressive governments prevail.

That doesn't seem acceptable, does it? It is that very attitude among Christians that allowed fascism to arise in Europe prior to World War II. When Christians have the ability to stop injustice in government and fail to do so that is a sin of omission if I've ever seen one.

[nebula]

Ah, yes - sorry it must have got lost in so many posts I had to read through.

The claim was made that these protesters were doing God's work.

So, let me ask you this way - what is God's work?

I think just war theory is pretty close to God's work.

Would you please show me a Scripture that supports this?

It sounds to me like you have judged us as being un-Christian.

I don't see how favoring the Iraq War from the outset is consistent with just war theory. Of course, that is a different issue then whether staying in Iraq is right or wrong now that we're there. I don't doubt your Christian identity but I find it ridiculous to think that a pro-war stance is obviously the Christian position. I am fully aware that sincere Christians can sincerely disagree.

You are right - you don't. So you have judged us who see the situation from a different perspective.

Now, what does Scripture say about what is the work of God?

[Guest yod]

tmrfiles, completely aside from the fact that your theory about "government being ordained by God" is so utterly ludicrous that EVERY piece of rationale and logic points to the fact that it is a "load of rubbish", I must point out something that turns the whole theory into a giant contradiction.

in the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be confirmed

Here is what Peter says:

1 Peter 2

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

19For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

20For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Some of you have decided that you know better than God what God's will is.

Why not just let His Word change you instead of changing His Word to suit you?

This is a free country so there is not a problem with discussing issues and even trying to affect change. I've got no problem with doing that myself...but when it becomes rebellion against authorities we will have a different problem because rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Was there even ONE American flag flown in the group of protestors in D.C.?

No...yet they want us to believe that they being patriotic? What a bunch of maroons.

I heard interviews of that crowd on Michael Medved. There were quite a few who sided with Osama bin Laden. This is not American or christian.

.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Here is what Peter says:

1 Peter 2

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.

19For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

20For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Some of you have decided that you know better than God what God's will is.

Question: Why are you so confidant that this government represents God's will?

Question: Why are you so confidant that Saddamn's Government DIDN'T represent God's will?

Question: How did you come up with the answers to the above questions?

This is a free country so there is not a problem with discussing issues and even trying to affect change. I've got no problem with doing that myself...but when it becomes rebellion against authorities we will have a different problem because rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Many people on this forum had no problem attempting to condemn the government and public schools when they believed Christians were being oppressed. Many people on this forum have no problem with condemning our countries policies on Abortion. Many people on this forum have no problem with condemning our countries policy on muslim immigration.

The government being talked about in the biblical passage involves a king. It is a monarchical system. This country is a democracy. Our democracy RUNS on what the public wants, and is then molded by our elected officials. Our government RUNS on people speaking their mind, and saying what they do and do not like about the government. How can you represent the democratic system if you believe it is wrong to work in the said system!?!

Was there even ONE American flag flown in the group of protestors in D.C.?

No...yet they want us to believe that they being patriotic? What a bunch of maroons.

Maybe I missed the memo that equated American flags with patriotism. I guess I feel expressing one's right to free speech in a non-violent manner is evidence enough.

[Guest yod]

Question: Why are you so confidant that this government represents God's will?

I have never said that.

What I have done is quoted God's Word about submitting to authority. Either God is sovereign or He's impotent in world affairs.

Which is it?

Question: Why are you so confidant that Saddamn's Government DIDN'T represent God's will?

I never said anything about that either...but since you ask....it is the requirement of God that christians under Sadaam submit to that authority. It doesn't mean anyone has to like it.

Question: How did you come up with the answers to the above questions?

I let the Bible say what is says and accept it instead of the "christian" relativist approach of trying to make the Bible fit my worldview.

Many people on this forum had no problem attempting to condemn the government and public schools when they believed Christians were being oppressed. Many people on this forum have no problem with condemning our countries policies on Abortion. Many people on this forum have no problem with condemning our countries policy on muslim immigration.

Abortion is a good example.

I'm against it because it murder.

Do you not know the difference between murder and killing?

However, I have to submit to the authority of the laws of the land. I can work against abortion while also submitting to authority of the laws of the USA. I can vote, I can support candidates who hold my view, I can attempt to sway public opinion, and I can have a peaceful demonstration according to the Constitution.

The government being talked about in the biblical passage involves a king. It is a monarchical system. This country is a democracy. Our democracy RUNS on what the public wants, and is then molded by our elected officials. Our government RUNS on people speaking their mind, and saying what they do and do not like about the government. How can you represent the democratic system if you believe it is wrong to work in the said system!?!

I haven't denied anyone the right to speak because that is submitting to our government. You might have confused me with someone else in this discussion.

All I have done is point out a few verses that show the rebellious nature of these protestors who are not just "speaking their mind". Most of the protestors in DC are hypocritical unemployed idiots that are a drain on the country. I support their right to say what they want to say and they should support my right to say they are useful idiots for a socialist agenda of destroying America from within.

When your wife and daughter have to wear a burka you will wish you had listened. When your son is taken and put in Koran school, you will wish you had listened. When your hand is cut off for stealing bread because America has been reduced from land-of-plenty to land-of-submission-to-sharia-law you will wish you had listened.

Maybe I missed the memo that equated American flags with patriotism. I guess I feel expressing one's right to free speech in a non-violent manner is evidence enough.

Yeah... you missed it alright.

That is just a small indication of what their loyalties actually are.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Question: Why are you so confidant that this government represents God's will?

I have never said that.

What I have done is quoted God's Word about submitting to authority. Either God is sovereign or He's impotent in world affairs.

Which is it?

Question: Why are you so confidant that Saddamn's Government DIDN'T represent God's will?

I never said anything about that either...but since you ask....it is the requirement of God that christians under Sadaam submit to that authority. It doesn't mean anyone has to like it.

If we are supposed to support sovereign authority as christians, why did we violate the authority of another country, Iraq?

If Christians under Saddam's gov't were supposed to submit to his authority, that means that Christians in the Iraqi army were told to kill American troops, oftentimes going against Christian troops. Christians killing Christians being ordained by God? Both sides are submitting to their own authority, right? Therefore, both sides are following God's will, right?

Here's the problem. We in general are declaring Iraq's government to be against God. We in general are declaring America's government to be following the will of God. Therefore, we felt that we could respect our authority, while we didn't have to respect Iraq's authority. The problem with this is it is ALL speculation! How do we know that we are ordained to do God's will? It is the same line of thinking that came with the crusades.

I am not referring to you in holding these beliefs Yod, for the record. I'm just commenting on the opinions I have heard from several others here.

Abortion is a good example.

I'm against it because it murder.

Do you not know the difference between murder and killing?

If you don't believe you are killing human life, how can you be accused of murdering with malice and intention? How can an abortionist murder something if they truly believe they are destroying some cells and not a human life?

Perhaps I have a different definition of murder than you do. I know the one on dictionary.com doesn't define abortion as murder, but I would like to hear your definition.

Either way, murder and killing have the same end result, the only difference is in the mindset of the killer/murderer.

But yes, I know that murder in theory means something different than killing means. When you murder, you kill, but when you kill you don't necessarily murder. But in the end, you have a dead life on your hands either way.

However, I have to submit to the authority of the laws of the land. I can work against abortion while also submitting to authority of the laws of the USA. I can vote, I can support candidates who hold my view, I can attempt to sway public opinion, and I can have a peaceful demonstration according to the Constitution.

Well, then what is your beef with these protestors!??!?! They are doing the same thing you are doing about abortion! Why are they unpatriotic in doing so? Why aren't you unpatriotic in doing so?

All I have done is point out a few verses that show the rebellious nature of these protestors who are not just "speaking their mind". Most of the protestors in DC are hypocritical unemployed idiots that are a drain on the country. I support their right to say what they want to say and they should support my right to say they are useful idiots for a socialist agenda of destroying America from within.

I don't see how these protestors are being rebellious and unpatriotic and having a socialist agenda of destroying America from within for doing what you do against abortion. From what I have gathered here, replace the word "anti-war" with "abortion", and you would be on the opposite side of the fence on this one. I don't see why you have such a problem with these anti-war protestors.

When your wife and daughter have to wear a burka you will wish you had listened. When your son is taken and put in Koran school, you will wish you had listened. When your hand is cut off for stealing bread because America has been reduced from land-of-plenty to land-of-submission-to-sharia-law you will wish you had listened.

I don't have a wife and daughter. But are you insinuating that the war in Iraq is the line between a free America and an Islamic-controlled America? That sounds exactly like "anti-commie" rhetoric during the Vietnam war. We were all terrified that communism was going to creep into the country, and Vietnam was the "domino" that we needed to keep capitalist in order to save our way of life!

Well... we lost the Vietnam war... Vietnam became communist.... and.... nothing. happened. Just like nothing different will happen if we lose this war. Radical terrorists won't suddenly just swoop into the country and convert our system, that is absurd

[nebula]

As I was asking before -

What is the work of God?

Regarding the Work of God:

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To me, we are to spread the Gospel in such a way that people can make a decision for Christ. More specifically to your question, Jesus clearly said that the work of God was "that ye believe on him who he hath sent".

We accomplish this in many ways, and IMO, we should strive to do His will here on earth. The role of Jesus is clear, and our role as followers is clear. What we have to do is find the humility, strength, and love to accomplish this work as best we can.

Thanks for answering the question, Ted!

So anybody want to take the challenge of this question:

knowing, Scripturally, that the work of God is to believe in Jesus, what should we be doing with regards to the Iraq war - regardless of what we believe about it being "just" or not?