No Second Chance

[OneAccord]

The Bible is clear that the road to heaven is narrow -- only through Jesus.

How does God deal with those that never heard the gospel? That's the questions you raised and what I was suggesting was instead of trying to answer those questions, rest in the character of God.

The gospel of either Christ or eternal damnation with no second chances at redemption paints a rather grim picture of the character of God to those who are not of the chosen/elite. I would much prefer to rest in His love and His manifold mercies and believe that He has the power and the desire and the purpose and the will to heal, transform and purify even beyond the grave.

Just think about what a set-up this is, we are born into sin, our hearts are wickedly evil, and our destiny is this lake of fire and brimstone. Forever and ever. Because of Adam and Eve. And then we also have Satan and his workers of iniquity actively, even agressively operating against us from the unseen realms, trying to kill us and keep us from the Truth.

If we are good and nice and try to live upright lives, this doesn't matter, we have the same end as the Hitlers of the world. Unless we recieve Jesus before we die, whenever that is.

Jesus came 2000 years ago to reconcile the whole world unto Himslef, but only those who hear about Him and believe it will be reconciled. He is not able to force someone to believe on Him, and neither are we, even those whom we love dearly, our children, our husbands, and other beloved unbelievers. We are given the responsibility to beg them to come to Christ if we don't want to see them burning in hell but how often do they refuse? We all have someone like this.

Meanwhile we have a million interpretations of the scriptures and no one can really get to the heart of obedience and keeping His commandments or even agree on what this constitutes. Meanwhile we have the silence of an invisible God, and a Book that most of the world can't read because they are and have been illiterate and must depend on the traditions of men to translate and interpret without bias, and those that do have Bibles and can read them spend a good deal of their time arguing, I mean debating, about doctrines and creeds.

Not only that, but we are commanded to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and forgive others seventy times seven times, but unbelievers cannot expect the same from God.

Meanwhile there are false teachers and antichrists around every corner waiting to decieve us and lure us into traps and snare and pits so the devil can devour us and intercept God's grace.

And then it seems that Jesus' plan to reconcile the whole world unto Himself was rigged from the start (foundation of the world) and the elect have already been chosen in the first place, so apparently He only died for the chosen/elect and the rest can go to hell and when we get to heaven we can watch them suffering while we feast on the marriage supper.

Heck of a set-up, isn't it?

[WayneB]

Heck of a set-up, isn't it?

I don't see it that way. Regardless, it sounds like you have already made your mind up. If you haven't and before you do, try reading the RBC booklet that I mentioned earlier. It makes a lot of sense and I think it provides answers to some of your questions.

Here are two more quotes from the booklet (a hook if you will)...

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"The debate over the future of unreached people has become more intense in the last couple of decades. Ironically, as the number of people who have never heard about Christ seems to be shrinking, a growing number of theologians are wondering whether it is possible to be saved by Christ without hearing His name or His gospel. "

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"Some of us will undoubtedly find ourselves struggling with the thought that God has not given everyone an equal opportunity to hear the message of Christ. We may be deeply troubled by the fact that not everyone has had a chance to hear the gospel.

If this is our concern, then we might also be troubled by the fact that many people live with profound mental retardation or disease that makes it impossible for them to hear and consider the good news of Christ. Others die at a very early age. We all come into the world with differing abilities and opportunities.

Even among those who do hear the gospel, there are profound differences. Some hear clearly about the love of Christ from loving parents or godly spiritual leaders. Others hear the message of Christ from those who abuse their power and exploit their followers.

This is when, once again, we must trust the Judge of all the earth to do what is right (Gen. 18:25). We don

[Ash]

This is when, once again, we must trust the Judge of all the earth to do what is right (Gen. 18:25). We don

[Anonymous]

This is when, once again, we must trust the Judge of all the earth to do what is right (Gen. 18:25). We don

[traveller]

OA, I can see that you are hurting over this. Your last post is almost bitter. I think Paul addressed this issue here: The unknown god -

Acts 17:22-31

22 So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-opagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious.

23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,

25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.

26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,

27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'

29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.

30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

OA, God can minister to people that is beyond our understanding. You yourself began a thread about how nature reveals Him and His work. Do you not think that visions and dreams happen on the other side of the world? Do you not think that our wonderful Father, that is so loving to give us His Son, does not call out to ALL men? In some way? We cannot know what a person has heard, seen, felt, dreamed, known, in his lifetime. In the above scripture Paul says we were placed in a geographical spot, in a culture, where we would be most likely to call out to God. Where we would be given our best chance at salvation. We walk by faith OA. I just thank God that he is in charge, and He has everything all figured out.

[nebula]

I am thinking of how Jesus dealt with sticky questions? How many times had He answered a question directly?

Sadducees: "Whose wife will she be in the resurrection?"

Jesus: "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. . . . He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

(Personal off-topic side note: why would the Sadducees be asking Him a nit-pick about the resurrection when they didn't believe in it? Unless they were trying to disprove the resurrection? So, what question was Jesus really answering?)

Luke 13 - 1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Pharisees: "Should we pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

Jesus: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God those that are God's."

I could go through more examples, but the gist is, He didn't! Must be a reason for that.

Now, in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus, notice the rich man never attempted to repent of his sins.

Many things about the afterlife area mystery to us.

Yes, there is the passage in Romans about those who are "outside the Law" being judged "outside the Law," "for they are a law unto themselves."

As for your little girl, sometimes it is best not to say "yes" or "no" one way or the other, but just speak the words you know and let her find the yes or no in her own heart - as Jesus did quite often.

Is there a second chance after death? Well, all I know is that the only chance for salvation one has at all is to repent and believe on Jesus. I have seen no passage regarding a person who died outside of the Lord attempting to do so. I do wonder what would happen should such a one try. But in none of the parables or teachings was that included in the story.

Hmm . . . strange speculations. . . .

[traveller]

And what power would the cross have if we could have a second chance after death?

[OneAccord]

And what power would the cross have if we could have a second chance after death?

I think the cross is powerful enough to reach all the way back to Adam and all throughout the ages both behind and before us. Do you think people will be able to repent in the Millenium? I do.

Look, it's not God Who I am questioning. I am absolutely in love with God and always have been a seeker of Him. Finding Jesus was like the icing on the cake, like I was hotwired right into the Almighty and I had a very intense conversion experience completely outside of the church with no Christians guiding it. Total move of the Spirit, no turning back, I'm a believer, I am passionately in love with Jesus.

Then comes the Jesus and part. Walking through Christianity has been a labyrinth, a crazy quilt quest for the Truth, mucking through all kinds of doctrines and rules and churches and denominations, false teaching this, heresy that.

What is really happening is I have been wading through knee high traditions of men, questionable translations of scriptures, endless theological dilemmas, the same ones that have been debated for 2000 or so years, a popular modern-day Westernized version of Christianity that doesn't look much like the early church as far as I can tell, plus some pretty bloody church history, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I believe with all my heart and all my soul that my God is the all in all, He is steadfast in love, abounding in mercies beyond our wildest imaginings, He is absolutely just and will judge in absolute righteousness and His love is far deeper and wider and higher than any of us can possibly attain to, and that He desires to reconcile His children unto Himself, all that He does will be for the ultimate good, including the judgement and one day every knee will bow before His holiness and every creature will sing praises to Him. We can choose His mercy or His wrath, but we will reckon with the cross one way or another.

As for me, restore to me the joy of my salvation. I'm believing in His love, I'm believing that His mercy endures forever, and that even His judgement will be in love for His sake. Some will se fire and some will see light but He'll get the job done and we'll come out of it pure gold. He'll get the glory, we'll get the joy. I'm thankful to have His mercy now, woe, to those who choose the wrath.

BTW Traveller, I love that passage in Acts.........

[Guest Calamity]

OA: "Heck of a set-up, isn't it?"

Yes, OA, it's the best set up I know of. We, who on our own, merit death and hell, have been given the opportunity to accept the Gift of Eternal Life through Christ, because of the Love God has for us.

Eph. 2

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That sounds like a good thing to me. More than I deserve, and could ever deserve.

Gal.3

[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Eph. 1

[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Even when we did not love Him, or know Him, He loved us enough to give His only begotten Son, so that all who believed might have everlasting life.

1John.4

[10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Romans 5

[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

[7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I believe it is quite a set-up, and one I'm very thankful for.

Romans 6

[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is what we deserve. Death. He gives us a way out, by the blood of His Son cleansing our sin - IF we choose to accept it.

Rom.8

[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Every person has that choice to make. Those that choose Christ, will not be in hell. Those that don't, very simply, will be after they die.

Josh.24

[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

After death, the decision making time is over, OA.

Heb.9

[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It doesn't say, "but after this another chance". ..."after this the judgment:" That's pretty clear.

[WayneB]

OneAccord,

If I assumed you are correct and my understanding of God's Word is wrong, what would be the reason for me or any of us to obey the Great Commission? It seems to me that it would be better to leave everyone in the dark, especially those in the darkest parts of the world away from civilized life, so that they would have an excuse when they stand before the God in judgement. They can easily say "Lord, I just didn't know. No one told me about you!" That's where your logic fails me...no offense. I'm not arguing and this is the last I will post on this since Scripture seems to take a backseat to emotion.

I understand your struggle, though, and I pray that God reveals His Truth to all of us. I have to admit, your plan would be easier to follow since I also have people close to me that are lost...but I cannot ignore God's Word.

God Bless brother,

Wayne

Mathew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."