Embryonic Stem-Cell Research

[RebekahDavid]

There is ZERO need for embryonic stem cells.

Seeing as not all diseases and illnesses are curable at this point in time there is clearly a need embryonic stem cell research as that research may lead to additional cures.

We need to focus our attention on funding research to develop other ways (such as through umbilical chords, bone marrow and adult stem cells) so that we can improve life without having to destroy life in the process.

All cells are living. The issue is what life is worthy of moral consideration. Embryonic stem cells are not harvested from sentient beings. In fact, many embryos that would otherwise be destroyed can be used for this research.

"You have a chance to cure all the world's diseases, but to do so, you must kill one innocent child. Could you kill that child, Stan?"

"No."

"You disappoint me. It's for the greater good."

"Well what about 10 innocents."

"Now you're gettin' it. What about 10? How about a hundred? How about a THOUSAND?!"

That's what all this sounds like. The end never justifies the means, folks. We should know better than that.

I'd say conception's a closer ball park

By the way, there are more than 70 illnesses/diseases which are currently being treated by stem-cells harvested from non-embryonic sources. There is ZERO need for embryonic stem cells. We need to focus our attention on funding research to develop other ways (such as through umbilical chords, bone marrow and adult stem cells) so that we can improve life without having to destroy life in the process.

There is no proof that stem cell can cure anything.

What is the cut off date?

That is a question for scientists to answer: when does a fetus gain desires?

Is it still undeserving of moral consideration at 9 months if it is still in the womb?

I'm sure the brain and central nervous system are developed before birth.

What about 5 months?

I've heard numbers around 20-25 weeks so that is probably in the ball park.

Ballpark? is "close enough" ok when you might be killing a human being. How can we know what day specifically for each non born human. If they have desire and can feel pain one day before 20 weeks and you kill them are you less responsible. Are they any less dead. What magically changed in one day. Who gets to decide when you are human and when you are not?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Ballpark? is "close enough" ok when you might be killing a human being. How can we know what day specifically for each non born human. If they have desire and can feel pain one day before 20 weeks and you kill them are you less responsible. Are they any less dead. What magically changed in one day. Who gets to decide when you are human and when you are not?

You can error on the side of caution. When it comes to embryos there is really no doubt that they cannot feel pain.

Tell me how do we error on the side of caution, one day, one week, one month? And who gets to decide that feeling pain is a prerequisite for being human?

Tell me how do we error on the side of caution, one day, one week, one month?

By finding the latest time after conception at which there is no doubt that the embryo/fetus has no awareness at all.

And who gets to decide that feeling pain is a prerequisite for being human?

We aren't discussing who is human, we are discussing when a being deserves moral consideration. We, collectively, have to make the choices.

Well as part of the "collective" I vote they are human the second the sperm hits the egg.

Vis a vis Romans 3:8, we should not do evil to bring about a good.

A human being...whether fully developed or not, is not a possession to control, but a PERSON to love unconditionally.

The real mother in the Solomon story was the one giving the child up so that the child might live.

On the same token, when we say that embryos are to be discarded anyway...what are we saying?

Jack the Ripper was regarded as a SICK and TWISTED individual because his mindset was that he would kill the prostitutes. Why not slash them to pieces? Why not take a knife and remove their outer organs completely to keep as souvenirs?

The whole practice is morally bankrupt. We preach about the promises it has to cure diseases...but in the end what we are preaching is purely evil. The embryos should never have been put together in the lab. The entire process goes against God's plan, and what should be a part of human nature.

What have we come to?

Because a fetus with a working brain has thoughts and desires while a fetus without a working brain does not have thoughts or desires. Beings with thoughts and desires deserve moral consideration because they can value things (e.g., those things that fulfill their desires are good for them while those things that thwart their desires are bad for them). Such a delineation easily explains why humans and "higher" animals deserve moral consideration while "lower" animals, plants, and inanimate objects do not deserve moral consideration (except to the extent that they effect humans and "higher" animals).

It is already established by science that a "fetus" can feel pain during an abortion. If you watch them on the videos you will see them react to that pain as they are torn limb from limb and piece by piect apart. How can you justify that pain to an innocent being just because they don't have a "working brain"?

"As to whether or not that little human being has a soul we really don't know do we."

Amen Papa's

Herein lies the problem with those of you who would argue that the embryo's are not worthy of consideration. You are not God! You can not be 100% sure that these are not little human beings without soul. Why would you risk that?

Trust science to tell you? Let me relate what they told me.

I knew the day my first child was conceived. I felt life at two months (flutters like butterflies) the drs said that was impossible that early i must be 4 months pregnant and moved up my "due" date. (By the way my OBGYN was a nationally recognized leader in the his field and often traveled around the country to speak and teach.)

It was not only possible but she was born only two days late according to my time table instead a month plus according to theirs. Healthy happy and at 6 pounds 12 ounces obviously not over due without complications.

Science while helpful is not God. Science is not perfect in what it claims to guess at at times.

Suddenly science is recommending that you sing talk count to this "embyro" as it is affected but outside sounds. Not too long ago before birth that was considered impossible they were not capable of thinking feeling being influenced. Can you risk guessing on "when" life begins? As for me God is the judge not science.

It cannot be proven either way although personally I believe it does have a "soul". Amen

Amen ((((((((hugs papa's)))))))))

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

"then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you."

NO! i am not devaluing life- nowhere can you point to that in my statement . I do NOT devalue the life of the disabled nor those in pain. I not only value them but have had the blessings of interacting with many who are disabled or in pain personally. Much interaction- human interaction filled with the love of God- much time, and much love given and received as well. Some up to their final breaths. I have been richly blessed to be able to do so. I would suggest if they are worthy of your consideration you would be blessed to do so as well.

To judge where life begins is God's job- as i said earlier you are not God and can not be sure 100%. and nothing you have posted proves or disproves your theory it is only speculation on your part.

Choose this day whom you will serve as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

PS My children well or unwell are a gift from God and as such are blessings regardless of their health or how long they are with me or i them.

My arguments are valid; no-one put me to shame. A review of this thread is a witness to who "attacked" who and when. I think most of you who posted here are very nice people even if I may disagree with you.

But, I'll let you post back and have the last word this time because it is important to you I see.

As for everyone else, please review the thread and pray about this issue; pay close attention to the scriptures and the arguments presented (both pro and con) and make your choices; try to ignore the pettiness since that was never intended to be the point of this thread. -- I suspect you guys are used to a certain amount of that anyway.

Praying for you Hypahia! And again i would encourage you to ask yourself if you are 100% positive that what you believe is right? And ask you once again is it worth it risking?

Your love for the disabled and those suffering is real; i would encourage you to help those now by reaching out in love and become tremendously blessed

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Hypathia]

Keep your eye on the ball here people. When you would rather see microscopic leftover embryos go from the petrie dish into the trash then you are devaluing the lives of the disabled, the afflicted and those in pain; you are saying that those people, those souls, are not worthy of your consideration; that your idealogy is more important to you.

i would rather see it all stopped. no multiple embryos created. just fertilize for the number that will be implanted into the womb and only done with sperm egg combinations.

Its murder to throw away the embryos or diassect whats there to get a stemcell.

I'm sorry Eliyahuw; I just saw your post and I'd like to reply to it.

I'd like to specifically address this comment:

just fertilize for the number that will be implanted into the womb and only done with sperm egg combinations.

. This is the position that James Dobson takes and I find it hypocitical of him. He tells his listeners and those on his mailing list to oppose embryonic stem-cell research but leaves this opening to accommodate his audience members and other evangelicals [the group that is reponsible for holding ESCR up]. I think he does this because so many evangelicals [his listeners] are getting invitro or have gotten it already and he doesn't want to anger them which would result in less donations to his organizations. If it's not okay to pursue research that could cure people and treat dibilitating diseases from life created in a petrie dish then why is it okay to use medical technology to create life in a petrie dish to treat a person who suffers from barreness? It smacks of "I get to have my cake and eat it too"......to me.

I would say that if evangelicals think embryonic stem-cell research goes against "God's Will"; then getting even one or two test tube babies (fertilizing only the number to be used) would also be in violation of "God's will" [barrenness in their case] and they shouldn't do it under any circumstances; no excuses.

[RebekahDavid]

Praying for you Hypahia! And again i would encourage you to ask yourself if you are 100% positive that what you believe is right? And ask you once again is it worth it risking?

Your love for the disabled and those suffering is real; i would encourage you to help those now by reaching out in love and become tremendously blessed

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Hypathia]

Praying for you Hypahia! And again i would encourage you to ask yourself if you are 100% positive that what you believe is right? And ask you once again is it worth it risking?

Your love for the disabled and those suffering is real; i would encourage you to help those now by reaching out in love and become tremendously blessed

Thank you Rebekah, I am 100% positive that what I believe is right.....at this point. It's become much clearer after reading all the scriptures regarding this and some other viewpoints, arguments (both Christian and Jewish); to be honest only a few years ago I didn't think about all those verses because unfortunately the loudest voices on this issue don't mention but one or two; I'm sure they're bound to know about the others though and by omitting them I do question how honest these men are in other areas; on other issues. I've started keeping my own folders on different issues and as I come across a verse that applies to the issue I'll save it to the file. -- To give credit where credit is due I only had about half of the verses listed in the first post but I read that post elsewhere and it had many more so I saved it and added to my file folder. I also saved the answer that that poster got which I put in post #2. -- The Bible is such a big book and all, and not everything on an issue is right together; it's spread throughout. Boy, when you start putting topical verses all together it sure makes a difference; it makes things a lot clearer. Thank you for being so sweet about it; it's hard to go against the tide sometimes; it makes people mad.

I do reach out; everyday. Sometimes I wish I could just take an illness on myself and take it away from somebody else.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Hypathia

[Tubal-Cain]

If there is more to man than his physicality then basing ethics on just the physical aspect of man is ignoring the spiritual aspect of man.

I find that religion, not ethics, deals with the spiritual aspects of man.

You kill the body AND the spirit when you kill an embryo...thus you have killed human life. You can't believe it's okay to kill an embryo or a young baby and turn around and believe in a soul. The ideas are mutually exclusive.

I don't believe man has the ability to destroy a soul or spirit (Mt 10:28). In fact, if that were the case then all the Christian martyrs would have been denied eternal life for both their body and soul/spirit were destroyed when they were killed.

[Tubal-Cain]

It is already established by science that a "fetus" can feel pain during an abortion. If you watch them on the videos you will see them react to that pain as they are torn limb from limb and piece by piect apart. How can you justify that pain to an innocent being just because they don't have a "working brain"?

Only fetuses that have reached a certain stage feel pain and I have already said I oppose such abortions. Hence, your question is wrong-headed.

[Tubal-Cain]

And how

[Tubal-Cain]

Horizoneast, your quote deals with a fetus and not an embryo, which is the topic of this thread.

[Hypathia]

Horizoneast, your quote deals with a fetus and not an embryo, which is the topic of this thread.

Tubal

Only fetuses that have reached a certain stage feel pain and I have already said I oppose such abortions. Hence, your question is wrong-headed.

My posts were in response to your post above to another poster regarding fetuses and pain. You didn

[Kansasdad]

Praying for you Hypahia! And again i would encourage you to ask yourself if you are 100% positive that what you believe is right? And ask you once again is it worth it risking?

Your love for the disabled and those suffering is real; i would encourage you to help those now by reaching out in love and become tremendously blessed

Thank you Rebekah, I am 100% positive that what I believe is right.....at this point. It's become much clearer after reading all the scriptures regarding this and some other viewpoints, arguments (both Christian and Jewish); to be honest only a few years ago I didn't think about all those verses because unfortunately the loudest voices on this issue don't mention but one or two; I'm sure they're bound to know about the others though and by omitting them I do question how honest these men are in other areas; on other issues. I've started keeping my own folders on different issues and as I come across a verse that applies to the issue I'll save it to the file. -- To give credit where credit is due I only had about half of the verses listed in the first post but I read that post elsewhere and it had many more so I saved it and added to my file folder. I also saved the answer that that poster got which I put in post #2. -- The Bible is such a big book and all, and not everything on an issue is right together; it's spread throughout. Boy, when you start putting topical verses all together it sure makes a difference; it makes things a lot clearer. Thank you for being so sweet about it; it's hard to go against the tide sometimes; it makes people mad.

I do reach out; everyday. Sometimes I wish I could just take an illness on myself and take it away from somebody else.