Embryonic Stem-Cell Research

[Kansasdad]

Praying for you Hypahia! And again i would encourage you to ask yourself if you are 100% positive that what you believe is right? And ask you once again is it worth it risking?

Your love for the disabled and those suffering is real; i would encourage you to help those now by reaching out in love and become tremendously blessed

Thank you Rebekah, I am 100% positive that what I believe is right.....at this point. It's become much clearer after reading all the scriptures regarding this and some other viewpoints, arguments (both Christian and Jewish); to be honest only a few years ago I didn't think about all those verses because unfortunately the loudest voices on this issue don't mention but one or two; I'm sure they're bound to know about the others though and by omitting them I do question how honest these men are in other areas; on other issues. I've started keeping my own folders on different issues and as I come across a verse that applies to the issue I'll save it to the file. -- To give credit where credit is due I only had about half of the verses listed in the first post but I read that post elsewhere and it had many more so I saved it and added to my file folder. I also saved the answer that that poster got which I put in post #2. -- The Bible is such a big book and all, and not everything on an issue is right together; it's spread throughout. Boy, when you start putting topical verses all together it sure makes a difference; it makes things a lot clearer. Thank you for being so sweet about it; it's hard to go against the tide sometimes; it makes people mad.

I do reach out; everyday. Sometimes I wish I could just take an illness on myself and take it away from somebody else.

Hypathia, I know my opinion doesn't hold any weight , but you offered yours so I will offer mine. I have read every verse you have given and considered them in context to the surrounding verses and the writers and language they were written in. I am 100% positive that you are completely wrong. The only way to justify your position is to take every single verse you have given completely out of context. I will pray that God will open your eyes to his word and that you will stop listening to any other influence. And yes you can pray for me as well. This is truly an evil evil practice from the very beginning of the process.

God Bless,

K.D.

[methinkshe]

May I just interject that human life is not created it is transmitted. A new individual is created at the point of conception. But the new individual inherits the life that God breathed into Adam, from his parents. If the argument is about protecting life itself, then we should be concerned about the life in every single cell. If we are dicussing the potential for a new individual to be animated with the breath of God's life first given to Adam and thereafter transmitted to the whole human race via procreation, then it is a different discussion - I think. It is the new, autonomous, unique, self-determining individual that is precious. And this new individual is a product of conception.

Ruth

[papasangel]

Is there more to man than is physically seen?

Yes.

If you answer yes, then your entire defense unravels as you are basing it solely on what is seen and not on man's spirit.

I don't see how basing ethics on the physical world makes it unravel.

If there is more to man than his physicality then basing ethics on just the physical aspect of man is ignoring the spiritual aspect of man. You kill the body AND the spirit when you kill an embryo...thus you have killed human life. You can't believe it's okay to kill an embryo or a young baby and turn around and believe in a soul. The ideas are mutually exclusive.

QUOTE

Jesus said (paraphrased) "That those would would harm a child would be held accountable to Him"

Most definitely keep that in mind. In context, Jesus was specifically talking about CHILDREN, those who he had around him as the example. The ancients knew what Children were, Jesus knew what Children were.......Jesus never mentioned the "unborn"....especially those that never made it to a womb which was specifically pointed out in scripture as part of the "life" process. The rest was your opinion.

You kill the spirit and the body of REAL people when you stand in the way of research that could help them. Scientifically, ethically, biologically and BIBLICALLY there is no reason to stand against embryonic stem-cell research. If you believe in the Bible and you believe in the soul then the Bible should be your reference guide. It's obvious from scripture that "ensoulment" does not occur at the moment of conception.

It seems to me that this issue is one of those where science and scripture are in sync with each other; people should stop creating conflicts where none exists and let the scientists get on with their job of saving lives, saving live; babies, children and adults. Those who are attempting to prevent this are part of a "death-cult" despite the political speak.

Wake up people.

There in lies your misunderstanding. You are correct in that the underlying issue is not the physical state of the human but the spiritual state. Where you have gone astray is trying to interpret the verses on breath into a statement that the soul is imbued when the human takes a breath. There are two areas where you are taking the word out of context. First the Bible talks about Gods breath giving life. This has nothing to do with the human breathing. Human breath and Gods breath are vastly different, you can not equate the two as being the same. Second is you are not taking the phrase "when the breath leaves the body" in historical context. You must understand what the writer means at the time it was written. To hold to your interpretation that the soul arrives when the human takes a breath you must take every verse completely out of context. This is a dangerous thing to do. One that in this case leads people into justifying the murder of innocent humans that indeed have a soul given to them by God.

In your statement above you reference "Real" people, implying that the developing pre-born human is not a real person. Many atrocities have happened because some group of people have decided that another group were not "real " humans. This line of thinking leads to unthinkable evil.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

You are the one who has been lead astray KansasDad. The atrocity here is that real people are suffering and dying and it is primarily due to the unthinkable evil of people like the Pope and James Dobson who do indeed twist the scriptures or omit them altogether to gain support for their "warped" personal wants.

I only have a moment here.

More articles from another perspective but you always have the Bible to rely on.

Jew On First - Many articles on stem-cell research

This is a matter of life and death people; please ponder and most of all PRAY!

Also this:

Jesus said (paraphrased) "That those would would harm a child would be held accountable to Him"

Most definitely keep that in mind. In context, Jesus was specifically talking about CHILDREN, those who he had around him as the example. The ancients knew what Children were, Jesus knew what Children were.......Jesus never mentioned the "unborn"....especially those that never made it to a womb which was specifically pointed out in scripture as part of the "life" process. The rest was your opinion.

If you prevent this research you are harming children and you will be held accountable to HIM. Think about it.

I never said it wasn't my own opinion. But I believe that Jesus was talking for ALL children those playing around him as well as those yet to be born (unborn being carried in their mothers wombs)

[papasangel]

And how

[Kabowd]

I do not understand the argument over whether or not the unborn can feel pain. Murdering someone "painlessly" does not make it any less of a tragedy. A life is ended, this always brings pain to someone at some point.

[Tubal-Cain]

papasangel, you're speaking of a fetus while our discussion is about embryos. There is a big difference.

Kabowd, I agree that murdering someone painlessly is not OK. My reasoning on why it is not OK is because the act of murder thwarts all the desires of the victim. However, an embryo does not have any desires to thwart in the first place.

[methinkshe]

In Luke 1:31 the angel said to Mary:

"And behold you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son and shall call His name Jesus."

The question arises: was Jesus conceived as the Messiah or did He become the Messiah at some later stage of gestation?

Hypathia, would you advocate that Jesus as an embryo could rightly be used for stem-cell research? If not, why not? And that to withhold Jesus the embryo as a means of forwarding stem-cell research would be tantamount to killing disabled and diseased children which is what you have accused those of who reject embryonic stem-cell research. If yes, why?

Doesn't God's purpose for an individual come into the equation somewhere, especially vis-a-vis "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world"? And if you acknowledge that God DOES have a purpose for individuals, does His pupose only commence at an arbitrary post-conception date? Bearing in mind that the individual is genetically determined at the moment of conception. If this were not the case then every child born to the same married couple would be indentical. When I look at my children I ask myself, now which one would I choose to have sacrificed as an embryo for the sake of stem-cell research? And you know what? Not one of them could I ever have sacrificed - not even the child who has cerebral palsy, especially not her, to be honest. You may argue that such a choice is irrelevant because the embryo is not personally known by the parents. I would beg to differ. No matter, it makes no difference either way, because the embryonic individual IS known by God.

In Christ Jesus,

Ruth

Edit = P.S. Hypathia, if it isn't too personal a question, may I ask why you are so in favour of embryonic stem-cell research? I am new to this board so I don't really know you. Do you, for instance, have a degenerative condition yourself? Does someone you love as much as your own life have such a condition? Or is your pov guided merely by philosophy? If this question is intrusive, please dismiss it instantly. I seek only to know from where your ardent support of stem-cell research emanates so that I can better understand your pov. I do not subscribe to it, and you have not yet convinced me of its validity, nevertheless I would very much like to continue this discussion at the foot of Jesus if you so desire.

Your sister in Jesus,

Ruth

Edited April 20, 2007 by methinkshe

[methinkshe]

Dear Hypathia,

I've noticed that this topic is about to fall off the edge of the page. I would dearly love to hear from you an answer to the questions I previously posed. The whole subject of disabilty is very close to me, I live it daily, and I am perturbed by your belief that embryonic stem cell research is an answer. I would really love to continue this debate with you because it is so close to my heart via personal experience.

In Jesus,

Ruth